Letting fires burn

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t76turbo
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by t76turbo »

ShannonG wrote:
t76turbo wrote:
Just because you can see it doesn’t mean you can get to it. I don’t have a helicopter parked in my back yard however I have a close friend I can call and could have one hovering over my house within few hours. And I’m joe blow.

I’ve learned from 15 years ago. I now have two 5 hp pumps, 300 feet of hose, one 5 hp trash pumps,2 small holding ponds disguised as gold fish ponds all at my house. Not to mention 1 international 7600 crew cab truck sitting at my farm property ready with water tank that would be at my house within an hour.
All this because (as mentioned just above) it IS MY HOUSE and I have very low confidence in our Gov. services. I’ve learned not to be cought with my pants around my ankles or better yet on my knees waiting for help.


And yet you left all that behind, and left your property in the hands of those you express no faith in being able to save it. I am happy for you that you didn't lose everything. Maybe you should take just a minute to be grateful too.
Edited to add: I in no way think people should stay behind when evacuaion orders roll in.



Where did I say I left all that behind? I was not evacuated in last few days. I said I learned from my experiences 15 years ago when my house burned down during the Okanagan Mountain Park fires. I did not have most of those things. Not ever had the thought entered my mind that a wildfire posed such a danger. It was unprecedented. I did however stay behind when I was in ordered out all those years ago. Staying behind is not for everyone. It can be very dangerous. Plus from what I saw back then countless more houses could have been saved. Small little spot fires in bark mulch, in shrubs, right around homes would catch fire, then slowly creep towards homes and then the home would light. City firefighters were doing all they could. I saw grown men cry, fatigued to where they could barely walk. They just couldn’t be everywhere at the same time. I believe some of the help arrived too late.

This is my point. Mistakes were made back then. Yes, hindsight is 20/20. So let’s learn. Leave nothing to chance.
If a fire gets reported and it’s in an interface zone, there should be an immediate response by Wildfire Services. If they are not able to respond they need to relay to local fire department to investigate.
Air crews were already just across the lake battling a much larger fire around Peachland witch I understand was of more importance at that time. However, those in control should have diverted one helicopter with a bucket line. We are talking about a 2 minute flight here. Not rocket science just incompetence.
I really like your post, just can’t find the button.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by bob vernon »

Last year during one of the evacuations in the southern Cariboo, one of the residents took time on his way out of his place to verbally abuse every firefighter he could find. How dare they evacuate him in the evening? Was it because the firefighters were unionized workers and wanted to wait until the evening to evacuate a bunch of properties so they'd be on overtime? He stopped a few times on the road and ranted about unionized workers and how lazy they were, how overpaid they were, how they weren't worthy of their jobs, and on and on.
Those firefighters saved his house. Did he stop on his way back home to thank anybody? Not that anybody heard of.
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gardengirl
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by gardengirl »

ShannonG wrote:
t76turbo wrote:
“Finally, a voice of reason. Maybe they should file the previously mentioned class action suit over all their houses that DIDN'T burn down and see how far they get.“


If we don’t speak out and voice our concerns, perhaps even threat legal action, nothing will change. Fighting fires is a tough gig. It’s the decision makers that have me concerned . Wonder how’d you feel if you called an emergency phone number to report a pending catastrophic event only to have no reaction. To watch a fire close by slowly go out of control and no emergency crews attend? I’d call that negligence, and that should be punished.


According to you, it was the slowest moving catastrophic event in history for at least the first 24 hours. And again I would ask why the neighborhood wasn't more involved in putting out the 'campfire'. Is calling a toll free number really enough? Feel free to voice your concerns; we are all entitled to our opinion. What bothers me is your mass labeling of incompetence when you have either returned already to your intact home, or are preparing to. If you are qualified to do the jobs of fire boss or higher, apply for the positions and enact change from the inside out.

t76turbo wrote:Just because you can see it doesn’t mean you can get to it. I don’t have a helicopter parked in my back yard however I have a close friend I can call and could have one hovering over my house within few hours. And I’m joe blow.

My parents neighbor owns a cherry orchard and whenever it rains he’s got a whirlybird blowing off cherries with in minutes! Why, because if he doesn’t he’ll potentially lose his crop and he knows this. So he makes plans and sets them into action when needed.

I’ve learned from 15 years ago. I now have two 5 hp gas water pumps, 300 feet of hose, one 5 hp trash pump, 2 small holding ponds disguised as gold fish ponds all at my house. Not to mention 1 international 7600 crew cab truck sitting at my farm property ready with water tank that would be at my house within an hour.
All this because (as mentioned just above) it IS MY HOUSE and I have very low confidence in our Gov. services. I’ve learned not to be cought with my pants around my ankles or better yet on my knees waiting for help.


Since you have no confidence in Gov't services, why didn't you call your daddy's neighbour for the helicopter?

Of course you would have to provide the location (in advance of the event), sign a contract for services, probably have someone come out and quote on the work, provide a method of payment. I am guessing having the chopper blowing wind on your fire would not be much help, but then you are the expert.

While you were wringing your hands about not having your very own fire crew on demand, why didn't you get that farm truck with the water tank? Oh right, you were waiting for the Gov't agency (the one you don't trust) to look after you.
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brentville
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Re: Letting fires burn

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t76turbo wrote:...Mistakes were made back then. Yes, hindsight is 20/20. So let’s learn. Leave nothing to chance.
If a fire gets reported and it’s in an interface zone, there should be an immediate response by Wildfire Services. If they are not able to respond they need to relay to local fire department to investigate.
Air crews were already just across the lake battling a much larger fire around Peachland witch I understand was of more importance at that time. However, those in control should have diverted one helicopter with a bucket line. We are talking about a 2 minute flight here. Not rocket science just incompetence.



t76turbo, sorry to hear of the loss of your home in 2003.
Yes, hindsight is 20/20 but not so for BC Wildfire Services...
In 2003, ignoring the lightening strike till after the fire got out of control, created the "2003 Firestorm".
If they'd put it out in a reasonable time, nothing would have transpired...obviously they've learned Jack.

Wildfire Governance
"While the BC Wildfire Service is mandated to mitigate the impacts of wildfire on life and assets, particularly forests and grasslands, it gives high priority to fuel management and wildfire suppression in interface areas where communities and forests come together." https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/safe ... governance

A bogus Firestorm 2003 Report was produced solely in an attempt to ease public outrage.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/farmi ... t_2003.pdf
Mistakes were obviously made yet this report infers the cause was beyond anyone's control. "Rather than dwell on causes"...in other words the "cause" is an embarrassment so we're not going there! They infer GOD demanded this fire happen so let's look at a load of useless rhetorical garbage we created instead ... page 20: "People can do very little about these forces of nature. Rather than dwell on causes beyond anyone's control, the Review Team focused on how the province, its communities and emergency response systems dealt with the disaster."

What a croc-o-shit! According to this report, everyone is blameless and there was absolutely nothing that anyone could have done to stop this fire and the resulting damages. How about making an attempt to put it out asap....duh? How can anyone learn from mistakes if they refuse they even occurred?
BC Wildfire Service failed to promptly extinguish this fire which directly caused "Firestorm 2003". Prompt action, in any form, is never mentioned once.


1. BC Wildfire Services knew well in advance that a thunderstorm was coming to the Okanagan Valley
2. They are also obviously aware that these storms start forest fires
3. The object of their mandate is to "mitigate the impacts of wildfire on life and assets"
4. According to the new Incident Commander, their priorities are protecting lives then “high-risk values such as homes"
5. In 2003, a failure to respond in a timely manner caused the destruction of 239 homes and the largest post-war mass evacuation Canada has ever seen.

Seeing how this strike was in a "high-risk" area, what possible excuse is there for deliberately ignoring this fire?
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t76turbo
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Re: Letting fires burn

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gardengirl you need to go back and read previous posts.
Not going to go in circles with you. I LEARNED 15 YEARS AGO that I need to be self reliant.
Back then I had nothing, now I do.

When it comes to protecting my family or my home nothing stands in my way. Especially not
BCWS. Again I NOW have what I need, because I learned....when will they?

About 2 months ago my pumps were used to help a neighbor whose house was about to flood because of a creek spilling its bank. Countless calls from whole neighbourhood to City of Kelowna, No help from them or province. City staff said once it floods then they can help. *bleep*, absolutely useless!
I Used my heavy truck to bring in sand for sandbagging and our great community up here all lend a hand helping out.

Be self reliant is what my daddy thought me all those years ago!
I really like your post, just can’t find the button.
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gardengirl
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by gardengirl »

t76turbo wrote:gardengirl you need to go back and read previous posts.
Not going to go in circles with you. I LEARNED 15 YEARS AGO that I need to be self reliant.
Back then I had nothing, now I do.

When it comes to protecting my family or my home nothing stands in my way. Especially not
BCWS. Again I NOW have what I need, because I learned....when will they?

About 2 months ago my pumps were used to help a neighbor whose house was about to flood because of a creek spilling its bank. Countless calls from whole neighbourhood to City of Kelowna, No help from them or province. City staff said once it floods then they can help. *bleep*, absolutely useless!
I Used my heavy truck to bring in sand for sandbagging and our great community up here all lend a hand helping out.

Be self reliant is what my daddy thought me all those years ago!


So what's your problem? Attention seeking behaviour?
Good luck with your Cherry Copter.
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t76turbo
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by t76turbo »

brentville, great last post :up:
I really like your post, just can’t find the button.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by onestop67 »

Hmmm.

I lived it, done it in 2003.

I am kinda on the fence about the Ministry saying to let this one burn.

Back in 2003 they said the same thing. No homes or lives are in danger...but then BOOM. Sorry about your luck. Now Chute Lake and Crawford...350 homes toasted lmao

So THIS time they seem right about the fire. 1 for 2...that's a 50% success rate. Fudge me.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by rookie314 »

Divert one helicopter with a bucket. lol. 350 gallons per bucket drop. Man that’s funny.
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t76turbo
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by t76turbo »

rookie314 wrote:Divert one helicopter with a bucket. lol. 350 gallons per bucket drop. Man that’s funny.


Yeah putting out fires is really funny.

Postal lake fire update on Castanet

UPDATE: 5:05 p.m.
A small fire burning in the Postill Lake area north of Kelowna Airport currently has seven ground crew working the blaze.
The BC Wildfire Service says air tankers have been called off and won't return unless there is a flare-up.
However, one helicopter and a water tender remain on scene.


BCWS got this one right! :up:

All fires start small, where ONE helicopter can make all the difference. Even a fire the size of a football field is quickly under control when close to water and no wind.
Sure after couple days and blowing wind, it’s too late.
I really like your post, just can’t find the button.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by ShannonG »

t76turbo wrote:
rookie314 wrote:Divert one helicopter with a bucket. lol. 350 gallons per bucket drop. Man that’s funny.


Yeah putting out fires is really funny.

Postal lake fire update on Castanet

UPDATE: 5:05 p.m.
A small fire burning in the Postill Lake area north of Kelowna Airport currently has seven ground crew working the blaze.
The BC Wildfire Service says air tankers have been called off and won't return unless there is a flare-up.
However, one helicopter and a water tender remain on scene.


BCWS got this one right! :up:

All fires start small, where ONE helicopter can make all the difference. Even a fire the size of a football field is quickly under control when close to water and no wind.
Sure after couple days and blowing wind, it’s too late.



The Postill fire started at 2:00 in the afternoon, literally a 30 second flight from the airport. Again, you're comparing events that don't really invite comparison.
Your remarks on this thread are starting to give the impression that you value the lives and safety of firefighters less than property.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by dogspoiler »

It's good to see them put out a fire while it's small rather than letting it grow.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by KeepingItReal »

t76turbo » Jul 21st, 2018, 8:58 am wrote:
“I remember when lightning hit by Rattle Snake Island back in 2003. Kelowna fire department sent their fire boat out to investigate as fire was right near waterline. They were directed to not interfere and to let fire in the park burn. Hmmm.... great decision! .... I lost my home that year.”

brentville » Jul 22nd, 2018, 7:39 pm wrote:
“In 2003, ignoring the lightening strike till after the fire got out of control, created the "2003 Firestorm".
If they'd put it out in a reasonable time, nothing would have transpired...obviously they've learned Jack.”

I found the following in a quick search of Okanagan Mountain Park fire. It is a submission by a resident of Peachland to the Fillman Commission back on November 25, 2003. This submission, along with the documentation by a neighbor, a Vancouver policeman, clearly shows the Okanagan Park fire was actioned on day one. There are numerous other official chronologies out there that one can obtain and read which support this person observations on day one and the days following.

Copied directly from the Fillman submissions and pasted here:
“I am a resident of Peachland, specifically the Brent Road area of Peachland which is six kilometers south of Peachland, directly across from Squaley Point. I have very little to contribute, especially to the people who lost so much in Kelowna. In fact, I have very little to contribute at all, but I have had this urge to discuss, or at least to question the initial hours at the beginning of the fire. Because, we were very much a witness to the first few hours and the frustrations I felt at that time and in the days that followed were very strong. I have in front of me a piece of paper that was e-mailed to me – a neighbor of ours who lives in Vancouver is a Vancouver policeman, but he also owns property in the same area as us, directly across from where the fire started. I hate to tell you this, but I left my glasses in the car, so please bear with me.

Saturday, August 16th, 0230 lightening strikes between Squaley point and Commando Bay.
• O600, helicopter begins fighting fire with water buckets.
• 0940, first of three Quebec water bombers arrive. 10:00 a.m., three province of Quebec water bombers fight fire.
• 11:00 o’clock, fire substantially contained. Water bombers depart.
• 15:30 hours wind from south increases, fire spreads rapidly north.
• 1700 hours water bombers return, trying to combat fire.
• 2030 hours fire fighting ceases due to nightfall.
And that basically is a synopsis of what happened on the first day and he kept quite a stringent diary of the last few hours.
Our recollections were very similar, the timing is slightly off because most of what I had remembered was literally from memory. He had actually tabulated the hours.

Our home is directly across from Squaley Point. We were awakened by a crash and a flash around 2:30. at 4:00 a.m. we saw the fire. We video taped it. It appeared to be about a mile south of Squaley Point, approximately the length of a football field, but narrower, and a hundred yards or so up from the lake.

At that time a fire boat and a ground crew could probably have dealt with it, possibly even just a ground crew with pumps could have dealt with the fire. That was my opinion, obviously it was not technically verified.

At 9:00 a.m. we videotaped again. By now there were helicopters and fixedwing plane. We spent the morning in the garden doing yard work, overlooking the lake and the fire. By 11:00 a.m. we noticed that the plane and the helicopters were gone. I remarked – I hope they only went to re-fuel. But they didn’t return. Then, around 12:00 or 1:00 o’clock, I’m not really sure of that exactly, but the wind got up – very noticeably stronger, from the south and we stopped what we were doing and watched as the smoke started to billow and got thicker, and blew towards Squaley Point and the Canyon. I remarked that they had better get back soon or this is going to get away from them.

Shortly after that we saw “them” return. A spotter plane, helicopters and fixed wing. By now the smoke was thick and the wind was whipping up the flames. By 3:00 p.m. the smoke and fire had crested the mountain behind Squaley Point and Peachland on the west side can testify to what happened next and over the following week in Kelowna, of course.”


As the above witness has stated, the only time the fire in 2003 was not actioned was between the hours of 02:30 and 0:600 on the first day. From 02:30 am to 06:00 am, it was still dark and access to the fire was steep, so for safety reasons, Forestry decided not to put anyone onto the fire until there was enough light for crews to see where they were going. As independent witnesses have described to the Fillman Commission, people and aircraft were put on this fire at first light. in addition, as people testified before the Fillman commission, Peachland Fire Department ferried forestry crews across in their boat on day one.

‘t76turbo’ and ‘brentville’, the chronology for the 2003 fire can be found online if you want to search for it. 15 years of misinformation and lies that have been put out there by, both members of the public and certain media outlets, has, over time, turned into "facts". The truth is, except for those initial 3 ½ hours of darkness, the 2003 Okanagan Mountain Park fire was fought from daybreak on day one and every day after.
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by seewood »

KeepingItReal wrote:‘t76turbo’ and ‘brentville’, the chronology for the 2003 fire can be found online if you want to search for it. 15 years of misinformation and lies that have been put out there by, both members of the public and certain media outlets, has, over time, turned into "facts". The truth is, except for those initial 3 ½ hours of darkness, the 2003 Okanagan Mountain Park fire was fought from daybreak on day one and every day after.


I can attest to that. I was picked up by a helicopter at 12:00 the first day. Couldn't land as the fire was actioned by planes. I commented in the helicopter the wind had picked up ( saw a sailboat lee rails under)
Once on the ground, there were several contract fire crews reinforcing the southern fire guard and the IA crews were at the top of the line. Worked with them, getting wacked by a load of retardant as well, for the next several days. Wind and fire growth was crazy so ground crews were pulled out of the park,. Relocated to south end and watched the helicopter drip torch a back burn to increase the fuel break. Wind shifted to come from the south and fire blew into Kelowna.
I was on that fire for a month. The amount of fuel and winds made it virtually impossible to control. I think it was finally deemed out in November?
Last edited by seewood on Jul 24th, 2018, 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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brentville
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by brentville »

KeepingItReal wrote:t76turbo » Jul 21st, 2018, 8:58 am wrote:
“I remember when lightning hit by Rattle Snake Island back in 2003. Kelowna fire department sent their fire boat out to investigate as fire was right near waterline. They were directed to not interfere and to let fire in the park burn. Hmmm.... great decision! .... I lost my home that year.” ....

brentville » Jul 22nd, 2018, 7:39 pm wrote:
“In 2003, ignoring the lightening strike till after the fire got out of control, created the "2003 Firestorm".
If they'd put it out in a reasonable time, nothing would have transpired...obviously they've learned Jack.” .....

Saturday, August 16th, 0230 lightening strikes between Squaley point and Commando Bay.
• O600, helicopter begins fighting fire with water buckets.
......

‘t76turbo’ and ‘brentville’, the chronology for the 2003 fire can be found online if you want to search for it. 15 years of misinformation and lies that have been put out there by, both members of the public and certain media outlets, has, over time, turned into "facts". The truth is, except for those initial 3 ½ hours of darkness, the 2003 Okanagan Mountain Park fire was fought from daybreak on day one and every day after.


I also live on Brent and witnessed what actually took place that morning in 2003. They never put a drop of water on the fire between 6am and 7am. I was there and called it in about 5:30am and they already knew about it. I called again before leaving for Kelowna at 7am because nothing was done to put it out.

Yes, a chopper arrived about 6am and flew around the fire for 15 mins or so and left. The helicopter had no bucket or nozzle attached so just how could it drop anything? If this chronology is from who I think it is, they were both half-blind anyway. I used binoculars! I'd dig for the pictures I took that morning but you'd likely say they were doctored anyway.

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