Letting fires burn

LTD
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by LTD »

yup much better to leave it for a day or so its really hard to fight, the ball was dropped period
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gardengirl
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by gardengirl »

Fancy wrote:Third hand information quite often gets the details wrong. Would be interested in hearing from a pilot.


Jflem1983 wrote:Picked up an ancient hitch hiker at Monte Lake years ago. He was a fire fighting pilot. I drove him to Kamloops. He had wonderful stories. He said he had flown bomber in 2003.
I never asked about scheduled delays. Wish i would have asked more questions


I have to wonder how successful a pilot he was if he was thumbing a ride.
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ShannonG
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by ShannonG »

Helicopters and planes don't put out fires; they support the people on the ground. Those fires didn't become visible until 8 PM, at which point it is TOO late to coordinate air support and get craft in the air. With all those fires starting simultaneously and dark falling shortly after, Forestry was left until the next morning to get any assessments done. Now you need several hours to coordinate resources, move people and machines. What looked like inaction was undoubtedly the equivalent of mobilizing an army.
You all love the planes because they are visual, and you can see the firefighting efforts taking place. I can assure you there are hundreds of people on the ground, in machines and on foot, who are doing everything they can to keep flames from homes. Because you can't see them, they must not exist though, right? Take a moment to step back and see the big picture.
LTD
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by LTD »

newsflash water puts out fires how about you look at the big picture if choppers were bucketing while grounds crews were being mobilized this would be much less of an event
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by ShannonG »

LTD wrote:newsflash water puts out fires how about you look at the big picture if choppers were bucketing while grounds crews were being mobilized this would be much less of an event


Choppers ARE bucketing. If you throw a water bottle worth of water, on a campfire, is it out?
LTD
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by LTD »

ya two days later after the wind blows it out of control that's the whole point here if you throw a bottle of water on your campfire when your lighting it yes it does go out get the picture
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Ken7
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by Ken7 »

common_sense_guy wrote:didn't say it makes sense greed never does .all I'm passing on is what many many in the industry see happening.find one of them and ask there take on it.to clarify I am only talking about the air support decisions being made.


Common sense would tell one differently.

I would suspect there are many factors which have to be considered. Firstly any fire it is LIFE is number one priority and concern. Secondly it is property, as homes and out building.

The guy on the end of the hose or piloting the plane do not make the decision to fight or flight.

I would like to however see the protocol for BC of who calls the shots. It is likely up to the Fire Services to access the situation and make the call on which fire is most concerning. They are likely then directed by the Province as to will they have addition resources and or funding.

Your theory would be like Police Departments saying, hold back the riot is not large enough. The total loss of property is OK, as long as no lives are lost.
seewood
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by seewood »

LTD , appreciate your concerns however if I may be so bold, a typical " armchair" expert.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the ministry will prioritize fires based on many criteria, including resources available.
Sure, I believe you in thinking a few drops would put out or knock down the fire in the park. Follow it up with a rap attack crew to contain and monitor the fire and a fire in the park with a smaller fuel load would be controlled.
However, I believe there were many lightening strikes in the area, some with heavy fuel loads, more potential to impact structures, transportation corridors and control issues. More of a priority with what resources might have been available? I'll play armchair and say yes.
At the moment we will not know what or why the ministry officials made/make the decisions they have/will. As a forester/ ex logger/ structure fire fighter, I have seen the decisions made and have made the best decisions I could as command of a number of fires.
Would I have made different decisions after the fact? In some instances sure, most not.
Cooler weather on the way and perhaps some precip. tomorrow. Fire behavior will be greatly affected and the ability to build guards and strengthen fire lines will be possible in a safe way for the ground troops.
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LTD
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by LTD »

ya I was very much involved in the 03 debacle so rest assured im very much aware of the incompetence that took place then and is still taking place today
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sublime
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by sublime »

As I commented in another thread (which was removed) unfortunately there isn't the best relationship between different regions/boundaries, detachments and politicians in this most important fight. I had chatted with a very high ranking person and close friend in the Cariboo fires last year and they said it was really unfortunate everyone couldn't put their egos aside and work together. Everyone seemed to know best and if one region disliked another for some reason they made it very well known with limiting help or resources for the other. There is a bunch of infighting behind the scenes that the gp do not know about and on top of that the minute a fire is deemed somewhat stable the government pulls people away from it for cost saving reasons.

I have all the respect in the world for these people trying their best to help, but hopefully everyone will be on the same page this year.
Last edited by sublime on Jul 20th, 2018, 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ShannonG
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by ShannonG »

sublime wrote:As I commented in another thread (which was removed) unfortunately there isn't the best relationship between different regions/boundaries, detachments and politicians in this most important fight. I had chatted with a very high ranking person and close friend in the Caribou fires last year and they said it was really unfortunate everyone couldn't put their egos aside and work together. Everyone seemed to know best and if one region disliked another for some reason they made it very well known with limiting help or resources for the other. There is a bunch of infighting behind the scenes that the gp do not know about and on top of that the minute a fire is deemed somewhat stable the government pulls people away from it for cost saving reasons.

I have all the respect in the world for these people trying their best to help, but hopefully everyone will be on the same page this year.

The Caribou region had several First Nations and the provincial government trying to work together,which is almost never a happy ending.
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sublime
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by sublime »

ShannonG wrote: The Caribou region had several First Nations and the provincial government trying to work together,which is almost never a happy ending.


There was more going on than just that. There were lots of cooks in the kitchen...
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by dogspoiler »

LTD wrote:ya I was very much involved in the 03 debacle so rest assured im very much aware of the incompetence that took place then and is still taking place today



Me too.
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seewood
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by seewood »

dogspoiler wrote:
LTD wrote:ya I was very much involved in the 03 debacle so rest assured im very much aware of the incompetence that took place then and is still taking place today



Me too.



Me to. In one instance the ministry were taking accountants out of the office and having them in charge of a sector. Experienced bosses were at a premium a month into the fire.
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delSol97
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Re: Letting fires burn

Post by delSol97 »

ShannonG wrote: Those fires didn't become visible until 8 PM, at which point it is TOO late to coordinate air support and get craft in the air. With all those fires starting simultaneously and dark falling shortly after, Forestry was left until the next morning to get any assessments done.


Why is it "too late"? I've been on numerous aircraft in the middle of the night and flames are certainly easier to see in the dark. This should be a 24 hour service, not a 9-5 job.

Looking at today's information it says 21 ground crew and air support are working on OMP. Where did they come from? Why couldn't they be there the day before?

It seems to me that we should have aircraft available right now who's sole purpose is to fly around and drop water on small strikes and new ignitions before they become the problem of having to get "21 ground crew" on the scene.

It would also seem to me that it would be a lot more effective having a chopper dropping water on a small fire before it becomes an actual problem, than a chopper dropping small buckets on 200+ hectares.

Based on the numbers, clearly the resources are available.

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