A little question about electric cars

[BC Landlord]

Bottom line is, .. Make EVs convenient and competitive on the market. But not by selective taxation and subsidies. Only then, they will receive a landslide adoption. Ideological narrative just doesn't cut it. Consumers are not that stupid.

[spooker]

Bottom line is, .. Make EVs convenient and competitive on the market. But not by selective taxation and subsidies. Only then, they will receive a landslide adoption. Ideological narrative just doesn't cut it. Consumers are not that stupid.

How is making sure the parking spot can support an EV charger either selective taxation or a subsidy?

[spooker]

Can you provide the flaws and assumptions that you found in those studies?

A couple cut and pastes from one of the linked studies;

2.1. STUDY SCOPe, DEFINITIONS, AND MAJOR ASSUMPTIONS

As with the vehicle modeling, fuels investigated in this study are assessed based on publicly available
data and models, and assumptions made by the authors.

Reflecting increased research interest in synthetic liquid fuels produced using renewable low-carbon electricity and
CO2 sources, electro-fuels (a.k.a. e-fuels) were added to the potential future fuel technologies that are
evaluated.

I barely scratched the surface on this single one to give you a slight idea what I mean. If you haven't read the actual studies but only the articles that tell you how great evs are, I'd suggest looking further into the methodology of these conclusions. These studies are extremely complex and not user friendly for us mortals but if you put in the effort, many an eye brow will be raised. You may or may not like what you find, similar to climate change modeling and the articles that are written about it.

Challenges, such as infrastructure availability for certain fuels (e.g., hydrogen fueling stations) require
more careful analysis. The market demand for fuels and vehicles depends strongly on their costs, which
this study attempted to evaluate quantitatively. However, other factors that impact consumer choice are
not covered in this study (such as vehicle range, battery charging time, and hydrogen fuel/charge
availability). Furthermore, the cost estimates in this study are subject to uncertainties and their
dependence on technology advancement for the FuTURE TECHNOLOGY case.
Key parameters influencing the results of various pathways are subject to different degrees of uncertainty

Thank you for pointing out how complex a question it was that was asked in the first place ... if we stopped doing something because it was not simple I doubt we'd have the society we have today ... while we like to heckle meteorologists we still look up the weather forecast even though much of it is based on incomplete data ...

Has there been a study that doesn't use assumptions that shows EVs have more GHG emissions? Though assumptions do not necessarily mean flaws

[77TA]

A couple cut and pastes from one of the linked studies;



I barely scratched the surface on this single one to give you a slight idea what I mean. If you haven't read the actual studies but only the articles that tell you how great evs are, I'd suggest looking further into the methodology of these conclusions. These studies are extremely complex and not user friendly for us mortals but if you put in the effort, many an eye brow will be raised. You may or may not like what you find, similar to climate change modeling and the articles that are written about it.

Thank you for pointing out how complex a question it was that was asked in the first place ... if we stopped doing something because it was not simple I doubt we'd have the society we have today ... while we like to heckle meteorologists we still look up the weather forecast even though much of it is based on incomplete data ...

Has there been a study that doesn't use assumptions that shows EVs have more GHG emissions? Though assumptions do not necessarily mean flaws

You're starting to sound a little like JFK...lol
Yes, we look up the weather forecast that is based on incomplete data and often, it is wrong.

I don't chase studies in attempt to prove my beliefs, I leave that to the ideologues. I'm aware that studies can be, and are, manipulated to show conclusions aligned with the interests of the parties invested in their outcomes.

There are many that put their trust in Google searches over critical thinking and they often don't go past pg.1 of 138 million results. I don't play the Google search game or in this case, the "has there been a study?" game because it's the same game and usually a trap. Good day sir.

[spooker]

You're starting to sound a little like JFK...lol
Yes, we look up the weather forecast that is based on incomplete data and often, it is wrong.

I don't chase studies in attempt to prove my beliefs, I leave that to the ideologues. I'm aware that studies can be, and are, manipulated to show conclusions aligned with the interests of the parties invested in their outcomes.

There are many that put their trust in Google searches over critical thinking and they often don't go past pg.1 of 138 million results. I don't play the Google search game or in this case, the "has there been a study?" game because it's the same game and usually a trap. Good day sir.

Ok ... I guess that means that any type of resource showing the opposite of all those studies is not publicly accessible ...

[77TA]

You're starting to sound a little like JFK...lol
Yes, we look up the weather forecast that is based on incomplete data and often, it is wrong.

I don't chase studies in attempt to prove my beliefs, I leave that to the ideologues. I'm aware that studies can be, and are, manipulated to show conclusions aligned with the interests of the parties invested in their outcomes.

There are many that put their trust in Google searches over critical thinking and they often don't go past pg.1 of 138 million results. I don't play the Google search game or in this case, the "has there been a study?" game because it's the same game and usually a trap. Good day sir.

Ok ... I guess that means that any type of resource showing the opposite of all those studies is not publicly accessible ...

There's no need to guess because, of course, there is.

Is there a study that includes materials recovery and recycling after end of vehicle useful life based on today's technology?

[spooker]

There's no need to guess because, of course, there is.

Where?

Is there a study that includes materials recovery and recycling after end of vehicle useful life based on today's technology?

There's plenty of coverage of how they are recycling the batteries ...

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... recycling/

An article from 2021 that talks about the challenges of battery recycling:

https://greenrocks.substack.com/p/how-m ... n-actually

And a study that looks at the emissions for recycling the batteries ...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0222-5

Recycling seems to be very important:

The report goes on to urge that improvements to the larger power sectors through decarbonization will only bolster lifetime emission reductions of all vehicles and encourages recycling — both of the vehicle body and the battery — as another critical element to reducing the carbon footprint of each vehicle.

https://electricautonomy.ca/2021/07/26/ ... ions-icct/

[77TA]

There's no need to guess because, of course, there is.

Where?

Is there a study that includes materials recovery and recycling after end of vehicle useful life based on today's technology?

There's plenty of coverage of how they are recycling the batteries ...

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... recycling/

An article from 2021 that talks about the challenges of battery recycling:

https://greenrocks.substack.com/p/how-m ... n-actually

And a study that looks at the emissions for recycling the batteries ...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0222-5

Recycling seems to be very important:

The report goes on to urge that improvements to the larger power sectors through decarbonization will only bolster lifetime emission reductions of all vehicles and encourages recycling — both of the vehicle body and the battery — as another critical element to reducing the carbon footprint of each vehicle.

https://electricautonomy.ca/2021/07/26/ ... ions-icct/

Of course recycling is important...very important.
Articles on battery recycling are easy to Google up right? Articles that go against the Google algorithm are much harder to find but I assure you, they are there. I've seen them with my own eyes but as I said, I don't play the Google search game.

For the energy consumed at the battery manufacturing and recycling facilities, we assess the damages from natural gas consumption using GREET 2016 assumptions for a kiln using North American shale gas. For grid electricity emissions, we use Environmental Protection Agency Emissions & Generation Resource Integrated Database 2014 data46. Specifically, we consider the emissions associated with using a US average grid, the NWPP subregion grid and the RFCM subregion grid. These subregions were selected based on known electric vehicle manufacturing locations, and the emissions assumptions are summarized in Supplementary Table 19. We use average emissions assumptions because the processes modelled operate continuously.

Transportation assumptions
We also use the location assumptions to create rough estimates of the shipping distances for raw materials and the collection distances for cell recycling.

How does that toxic battery factor in to the lifetime ghg emissions of an ev? Where can I find that?

[spooker]

Of course recycling is important...very important.
Articles on battery recycling are easy to Google up right? Articles that go against the Google algorithm are much harder to find but I assure you, they are there. I've seen them with my own eyes but as I said, I don't play the Google search game.

There are plenty of other options than Google, if they are as easy as you say why isn't there a link provided? If you've seen them then where are they? The browser history provides a great roadmap to everything you've seen

[77TA]

Of course recycling is important...very important.
Articles on battery recycling are easy to Google up right? Articles that go against the Google algorithm are much harder to find but I assure you, they are there. I've seen them with my own eyes but as I said, I don't play the Google search game.

There are plenty of other options than Google, if they are as easy as you say why isn't there a link provided? If you've seen them then where are they? The browser history provides a great roadmap to everything you've seen

Since internet articles are the replacement for some people's thought skills, I'll cave in to your silly game and throw you a small bone. Please don't rely on my internet surfing skills to educate you any further. Clearing your browser, deleting your cookies and starting a new algorithm might help.

https://medium.com/batterybits/are-elec ... b35396a4df

[BC Landlord]

Since internet articles are the replacement for some people's thought skills, I'll cave in to your silly game and throw you a small bone. Please don't rely on my internet surfing skills to educate you any further. Clearing your browser, deleting your cookies and starting a new algorithm might help.

https://medium.com/batterybits/are-elec ... b35396a4df

You are absolutely right. Always be aware of people insisting on "studies" to prove just about any narrative they want to push, even if it flies in the face of basic facts and common sense. Producing "studies" has become an industry nowadays. A corruption of the term "study".

It has become even easier to deceive nowadays with the introduction of AI. Not sure if anyone noticed, but there is a new icon next to the clock in your Windows taskbar called "Copilot", which is your AI assistant. You can order just about any narrative your heart desires, and call it a "study". I bet you, it will be heavily used by illusionists of every stripe in their efforts to deceive their audiences. But in reality, they have nothing tangible to show, other than these bogus "studies".

Here is an example of a request to "generate image of a crazy vehicle" ... It came back with a vehicle with "wings, propellers and rockets", with options to "add more weapons", "change colors" and "make it fly". Now, can you imagine what kind of "studies" this could produce .. ?

Crazy Vehicle.jpg

Bottom line is, never, never trust people who are heavy on this kind of rhetoric. It only means they need a crutch to support their otherwise illogical and indefensible views.

[spooker]

Since internet articles are the replacement for some people's thought skills, I'll cave in to your silly game and throw you a small bone. Please don't rely on my internet surfing skills to educate you any further. Clearing your browser, deleting your cookies and starting a new algorithm might help.

https://medium.com/batterybits/are-elec ... b35396a4df

Thank you ... it was a good read ... and it's good to know that in over 3 years the focus on dealing with the processes covered here has been able to move things forward ...

[spooker]

It has become even easier to deceive nowadays with the introduction of AI. Not sure if anyone noticed, but there is a new icon next to the clock in your Windows taskbar called "Copilot", which is your AI assistant. You can order just about any narrative your heart desires, and call it a "study". I bet you, it will be heavily used by illusionists of every stripe in their efforts to deceive their audiences. But in reality, they have nothing tangible to show, other than these bogus "studies".

Here is an example of a request to "generate image of a crazy vehicle" ... It came back with a vehicle with "wings, propellers and rockets", with options to "add more weapons", "change colors" and "make it fly". Now, can you imagine what kind of "studies" this could produce .. ?

Bottom line is, never, never trust people who are heavy on this kind of rhetoric. It only means they need a crutch to support their otherwise illogical and indefensible views.

Yes, it is worrisome to see the news about Trump supporters using AI-generated photos, or the lawyer using AI-generated cases to defend their client in family court ... though at the moment it seems to be in use in a certain direction and not the other ...

https://www.biv.com/news/economy-law-po ... ng-8401018

Thankfully we have a good amount of real data that has been gathered for discussion around electric vehicles ...

[rustled]

Since internet articles are the replacement for some people's thought skills, I'll cave in to your silly game and throw you a small bone. Please don't rely on my internet surfing skills to educate you any further. Clearing your browser, deleting your cookies and starting a new algorithm might help.

https://medium.com/batterybits/are-elec ... b35396a4df

You are absolutely right. Always be aware of people insisting on "studies" to prove just about any narrative they want to push, even if it flies in the face of basic facts and common sense. Producing "studies" has become an industry nowadays. A corruption of the term "study".

It has become even easier to deceive nowadays with the introduction of AI. Not sure if anyone noticed, but there is a new icon next to the clock in your Windows taskbar called "Copilot", which is your AI assistant. You can order just about any narrative your heart desires, and call it a "study". I bet you, it will be heavily used by illusionists of every stripe in their efforts to deceive their audiences. But in reality, they have nothing tangible to show, other than these bogus "studies".

SNIP

Bottom line is, never, never trust people who are heavy on this kind of rhetoric. It only means they need a crutch to support their otherwise illogical and indefensible views.

Can't make a lack of awareness of perspective bias much more clear: "... at the moment it seems to be in use in a certain direction and not the other..."

Folk defending the use of public resources to promote the EV industry seem unable (unwilling?) to detach from preferred narratives.

[BC Landlord]

Folk defending the use of public resources to promote the EV industry seem unable (unwilling?) to detach from preferred narratives.

My understanding is that they identify themselves with ideologies, so they believe that no resource should be spared toward their dogmatic views. And no fact or logic could ever penetrate their thick skulls. That's typical of a cult.