Attention shift from EV's to hydrogen fuel cell technology.

[hozzle]

Companies started a while ago... Suncor dumped its electric divisions a while back and focus on hydrogen plant technology... now the automotive industry may follow or it has been planned for quit some time.

[Jlabute]

Seeing that EVs are not making a dent in the market and tons of subsidy money pours in to manufacturers, I think hydrogen is probably as much a distraction as BEV at this time. Both need wide-spread costly infrastructure. I might like BEV one day, but it would be nice to see some quantum leaps in battery technology. Something an order of magnitude better; safer, more convenient, more capacity, lighter, cheaper.

[TylerM4]

Fuel cells will never be viable unless someone can solve the hydrogen storage problem. Probably where the bulk of GM's focus would be.

For those not aware of what I'm referring to: Unlike propane or natural gas, it's not feasible to store liquid hydrogen in a high pressure tank in the vehicle. Only compressed hydrogen could be stored which doesn't hold nearly the same energy density as liquid. Without liquid hydrogen the range is going to suck. To store liquid hydrogen you require a high pressure storage tank, but you also need to keep that storage tank "super cold".

There's also the fact that most hydrogen being produced today is not done in a green way. The equivalent of electric cars using electricity from natural gas powered electric plants.

A couple of major hurtles to solve before the technology could be considered "Better than EV". Hope they pull it off!

[GordonH]

Both Edmonton and Burnaby are building large Fuel-cell facilities, as I’ve mentioned in other threads Suncor has dropped their Wind and Solar divisions and getting into Fuel-cell as well.

[hozzle]

Fuel cells will never be viable unless someone can solve the hydrogen storage problem. Probably where the bulk of GM's focus would be.

For those not aware of what I'm referring to: Unlike propane or natural gas, it's not feasible to store liquid hydrogen in a high pressure tank in the vehicle. Only compressed hydrogen could be stored which doesn't hold nearly the same energy density as liquid. Without liquid hydrogen the range is going to suck. To store liquid hydrogen you require a high pressure storage tank, but you also need to keep that storage tank "super cold".

There's also the fact that most hydrogen being produced today is not done in a green way. The equivalent of electric cars using electricity from natural gas powered electric plants.

A couple of major hurtles to solve before the technology could be considered "Better than EV". Hope they pull it off!

I think they already thought of that for vehicle storage.

"Another possibility is the chemical storage of hydrogen, whereby it is stored on the surface of solids (by adsorption) or within solids (by absorption)."

[TylerM4]

I think they already thought of that for vehicle storage.

"Another possibility is the chemical storage of hydrogen, whereby it is stored on the surface of solids (by adsorption) or within solids (by absorption)."

Interesting, I missed that part. Thanks for bringing to my attention. Will have to do a little research on that type of storage.

My initial thought is that it would be very hard to get the similar energy density as pure liquid hydrogen/fuel but I'm no chemist by any means. Just did some googling and liquid hydrogen has about 3x the energy density as liquid gasoline so I suppose we don't need to get the same density as liquid hydrogen. 1/4 the energy density of liquid hydrogen would suffice.

[Jlabute]

Chemical storage of hydrogen is not a new concept for vehicles. This used to be the way to go before compressed hydrogen was introduced. I am sure there have been incremental improvements since. Another concern is availability of platinum for fuel cells. Scientists are rushing to find a better and cheaper catalyst. Even if the decision to go full hydrogen is made, there is not enough platinum in the world to allow it.

[TylerM4]

Chemical storage of hydrogen is not a new concept for vehicles. This used to be the way to go before compressed hydrogen was introduced. I am sure there have been incremental improvements since. Another concern is availability of platinum for fuel cells. Scientists are rushing to find a better and cheaper catalyst. Even if the decision to go full hydrogen is made, there is not enough platinum in the world to allow it.

Looking at this article which is pretty informative:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/c ... -materials

What stands out for me is the refueling process. Doesn't look like you can "re-charge" the hydrogen in the vehicle. The chemical tank must be emptied and re-filled with new "hydrogenated" chemical.

The re-fueling process would need to start with draining your tank. No option to "refuel" at home like an EV but likely something that could be more similar to a traditional gas station like experience.

[Jlabute]

Looking at this article which is pretty informative:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/c ... -materials

What stands out for me is the refueling process. Doesn't look like you can "re-charge" the hydrogen in the vehicle. The chemical tank must be emptied and re-filled with new "hydrogenated" chemical.

The re-fueling process would need to start with draining your tank. No option to "refuel" at home like an EV but likely something that could be more similar to a traditional gas station like experience.

Thanks, good article. 30 pages of summary? lol. Yup, that is the way I read it too, you need to release spent dehydrogenated material, and replace it with hydrogenated material. They are examining direct rehydrogenation. So, two minutes to dump and two minutes to fuel? Still not that bad.

Lots of pros and cons I bet. It'll take a while to read it all.
Must work in a given temperature range -20C to 100C.
Some compounds are highly toxic while others are not.
Varying methods to force the release of hydrogen, using water or temperature.
How would you offload spent fuel?

I can see Octane rating eventually replaced with H2 Purity. lol. Maybe purity would affect the re-usability of the hydrogen chemical carriers.

Hmmm.... the considerations are complex. After skimming the document I can't really say "Yeah! Great idea." This seems to be still a work in progress.

[LovemyBolt]

Whereas electricity is ubiquitous and way cheaper than what hydrogen is and likely will be. I can "fill" my car at home. Not likely in our lifetimes to be the case with hydrogen.

[hozzle]

Whereas electricity is ubiquitous and way cheaper than what hydrogen is and likely will be. I can "fill" my car at home. Not likely in our lifetimes to be the case with hydrogen.

True... and that is why California asks EV users to NOT charge when their is a heat wave so that "ubiquitous" energy can be used for other purposes.

[LovemyBolt]

True... and that is why California asks EV users to NOT charge when their is a heat wave so that "ubiquitous" energy can be used for other purposes.

Ubiquitous means it's everywhere easily accessible, not that it's limitless.
You use the correct term - "ask". It's all voluntary to the consumer. And nowhere in the official wording do they specifically point out charging of EV's. Simply to conserve. That includes using your washer and dryer. Even to pre-cool the house before the asked-for time of day. Ideas to conserve. And the last time there was a government emergency call out was '22, not this past summer. Of course an effect of not conserving would be that there could be controlled power outages. Then you can't use any grid power at all for anything let alone charging an EV.
I'll let the loony toon climate change thread entertain the vicious cycle of WHY there are high energy needs on occasion.

[GordonH]

Whereas electricity is ubiquitous and way cheaper than what hydrogen is and likely will be. I can "fill" my car at home. Not likely in our lifetimes to be the case with hydrogen.

I can currently fill my car in minutes every 3 weeks for well under 40 dollars.

[LovemyBolt]

I can currently fill my car in minutes every 3 weeks for well under 40 dollars.

I can "fill" my car at home in Fortis territory for well under a quarter of that and certainly get way more range than your car for the same total cost. I can take a minute to plug in at home and then walk away and enjoy my evening and not worry about gas spilling out or dripping and dirty nozzles and snow and rain and heat and cold.
But we have discussed this many times before and yes your current vehicle needs are not suitable to having an EV. And that's fine.

I don't like spending all the money for gas. And to the topic at hand, the rather more cost for hydrogen compared to electricity.

[GordonH]

I can currently fill my car in minutes every 3 weeks for well under 40 dollars.

I can "fill" my car at home in Fortis territory for well under a quarter of that and certainly get way more range than your car for the same total cost. I can take a minute to plug in at home and then walk away and enjoy my evening and not worry about gas spilling out or dripping and dirty nozzles and snow and rain and heat and cold.
But we have discussed this many times before and yes your current vehicle needs are not suitable to having an EV. And that's fine.

I don't like spending all the money for gas. And to the topic at hand, the rather more cost for hydrogen compared to electricity.

All 3 types of vehicles have 1 thing in common, they are not environmentally friendly, either in production of or in their running.

Walking is as about environmentally friendly as it comes.