EV Battery Fires Not Really A Thing

[spooker]

I know that we've had plenty of back and forth on EVs and one of the topics that comes up quite often are the fires ... but are our perceptions being true to us?

Cars catch fire. Electric vehicles are no exception. In the United States, according to a 2023 study citing recent data from the National Transportation Safety Board and the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, gasoline-powered, internal-combustion engine (ICE) cars were involved in about 1,530 fires per every 100,000 sold. On the other hand, pure electric vehicles (meaning those powered only by batteries) were involved in just 25 fires per 100,000 sold. Yet, says, Paul A. Kohl, a professor at GeorgiaTech’s School of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering, in Atlanta, “The media don’t treat EVs and ICEs with equal footing, because gasoline is not sensational anymore.”

https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithium-ion-battery-fires

The article goes on to talk about the per 100k rate for EVs which is quite low ... and several sensational news items where it was assumed to be the fault of the EV when after investigation it wasn't, but that part didn't make the headlines ...

[Jlabute]

Hard to say at this time especially since not many EVs are on the road and they are not used as much as their ICE counterparts, plus they are mostly brand new.

We need to compare counts by age categories since batteries become less reliable over time. Various vehicles have had their batteries replaced under warranty too due to manufacturing defects.

Despite what the numbers are, lithium battery fires are more dangerous and burn at temperatures that furiously melt metal. EVs have sunk shipping boats, burn down buildings, and killed owners. Battery powered mobility device fires are the number one cause of home fire deaths.

A number of batteries fail explosively. Imagine a leaky battery. It reacts with the air and lets off hydrogen gas that fills your room.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6487603


An enormous amount of resources is required to extinguish an EV fire. Also, EVs if slightly damaged are a write off since you have no way of determining if the battery is still safe.


As I have said many times, I am all for a quantum leap forward in battery chemistry technology. Give us something cheaper, lighter, safer, and with a higher energy density. Then we can talk.

[Urban Cowboy]

Hard to say at this time especially since not many EVs are on the road and they are not used as much as their ICE counterparts, plus they are mostly brand new.

We need to compare counts by age categories since batteries become less reliable over time. Various vehicles have had their batteries replaced under warranty too due to manufacturing defects.

Despite what the numbers are, lithium battery fires are more dangerous and burn at temperatures that furiously melt metal. EVs have sunk shipping boats, burn down buildings, and killed owners. Battery powered mobility device fires are the number one cause of home fire deaths.

A number of batteries fail explosively. Imagine a leaky battery. It reacts with the air and lets off hydrogen gas that fills your room.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6487603


An enormous amount of resources is required to extinguish an EV fire. Also, EVs if slightly damaged are a write off since you have no way of determining if the battery is still safe.


As I have said many times, I am all for a quantum leap forward in battery chemistry technology. Give us something cheaper, lighter, safer, and with a higher energy density. Then we can talk.

Or forget about batteries and focus on hydrogen.

[LovemyBolt]

Or forget about batteries and focus on hydrogen.

Way too expensive to re-fuel for my liking. Certainly here in BC.

[GordonH]

Or forget about batteries and focus on hydrogen.

Way too expensive to re-fuel for my liking. Certainly here in BC.

Time will tell, knowing how many companies are getting involved.

[LovemyBolt]

Time will tell, knowing how many companies are getting involved.

My Bolt, charging at home, in Fortis territory, at residential rates = 64 kwh (stated capacity) * $0.13 per kwh = $8.32 or $0.02 per km stated range
A current Toyota Mirai, filling at the local hydrogen station = 5.74 kg (stated capacity) * $12.75 per kg = $73.18 or $0.11 per km stated range.
Hydrogen would have to get down to $2.25 /kg to equal the cost of home electricity for the stated range. And I would not foresee the day when hydrogen is being delivered to the home for home re-fueling. Or at least not while I'm alive. Unlike electricity which is just about everywhere.

[GordonH]

Time will tell, knowing how many companies are getting involved.

My Bolt, charging at home, in Fortis territory, at residential rates = 64 kwh (stated capacity) * $0.13 per kwh = $8.32 or $0.02 per km stated range
A current Toyota Mirai, filling at the local hydrogen station = 5.74 kg (stated capacity) * $12.75 per kg = $73.18 or $0.11 per km stated range.
Hydrogen would have to get down to $2.25 /kg to equal the cost of home electricity for the stated range. And I would not foresee the day when hydrogen is being delivered to the home for home re-fueling. Or at least not while I'm alive. Unlike electricity which is just about everywhere.

Of course refilling takes the same time as refilling a gasoline or diesel vehicle.
I’m not planning on purchasing either any time soon, my gasoline vehicle goes a hell of lot further on single tank than either Electric or Hydrogen.
Maybe the next generation of vehicles will truly be environmentally friendly vehicles will be faster refilling and go further.
Also I will wait to see how much the government (feds & province) plans on taxing electricity.

[spooker]

Hard to say at this time especially since not many EVs are on the road and they are not used as much as their ICE counterparts, plus they are mostly brand new.

Part of the reason that the per 100k number was specified since there aren't the same numbers ...

Had a chat with an owner of a Nissan Leaf the other day who was charging in the parking garage near my truck ... they had a second vehicle, a Suburban, as they have 3 kids and need the room for trips ... but it's the EV that gets the majority of their mileage since it's easier to get around with and they don't always need all the room

And wait, there was the article that stated they had a higher rate of failure because they were new but now because they are new they don't have as many battery fires?

[hozzle]

Wow… I thought we went thru this before in another thread… it’s NOT the quantity it’s the intensity of the fires from EV batteries that should be of greater concern

[TylerM4]

Wow… I thought we went thru this before in another thread… it’s NOT the quantity it’s the intensity of the fires from EV batteries that should be of greater concern

So here's the thing: Energy is energy.

Due to differences in efficiency, a tank of gasoline that will get you 400km has more than double the energy that a battery with enough charge to drive 400km. Yes, batteries burn with a strong intensity...but so does a tank of gasoline.

[spooker]

Wow… I thought we went thru this before in another thread… it’s NOT the quantity it’s the intensity of the fires from EV batteries that should be of greater concern

That's actually addressed in the article I posted at the beginning ... fire personnel are wholly trained to use water on everything but these batteries need something other than water and they can be easily dealt with ...

[Jlabute]

Entire generations of Li-ion batteries have been swapped. Every Bolt ever made has had a new battery installed. This had made the Bolt one of the most polluting vehicles ever. Same with various other EVs that had used the same battery technology.

There is a large difference in burn temperatures between lithium ion and gasoline. Lithium Ion fires are difficult to extinguish. A fire can restart while the vehicle is being towed, or restart after the vehicle has been towed. There are many cells of which one can't determine the condition of. Li-ion reaction to air and water creates hydrogen which also has been show to have explosive effects.

Data from FEMA suggest a gas-powered vehicle burns up to about 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit while a battery fire can reach over 2,500 F.

When it comes down to it, Li-ion is more dangerous. I've seen a few videos of vehicles literally blowing up.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807

[spooker]

Entire generations of Li-ion batteries have been swapped. Every Bolt ever made has had a new battery installed. This had made the Bolt one of the most polluting vehicles ever. Same with various other EVs that had used the same battery technology.

There is a large difference in burn temperatures between lithium ion and gasoline. Lithium Ion fires are difficult to extinguish. A fire can restart while the vehicle is being towed, or restart after the vehicle has been towed. There are many cells of which one can't determine the condition of. Li-ion reaction to air and water creates hydrogen which also has been show to have explosive effects.

Data from FEMA suggest a gas-powered vehicle burns up to about 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit while a battery fire can reach over 2,500 F.

When it comes down to it, Li-ion is more dangerous. I've seen a few videos of vehicles literally blowing up.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807

It's like snake handling, if you know what you're doing it's not as dangerous as it might appear ...

But MSB’s Per-Ola Malmqvist has developed webinars that explain how to safely put out battery fires. In a 2022 webinar, he described the tools and techniques that were used to put out a raging EV battery fire in 10 minutes using only 750 liters of water. In another webinar about EV fire suppression best practices, Malmqvist interviewed a firefighter from Vestfold Fire Service in Norway, where the extinguishing method Malmqvist recommends was tried for the first time in battling an electric-vehicle blaze.

[LovemyBolt]

Entire generations of Li-ion batteries have been swapped. Every Bolt ever made has had a new battery installed. This had made the Bolt one of the most polluting vehicles ever. Same with various other EVs that had used the same battery technology.

There is a large difference in burn temperatures between lithium ion and gasoline. Lithium Ion fires are difficult to extinguish. A fire can restart while the vehicle is being towed, or restart after the vehicle has been towed. There are many cells of which one can't determine the condition of. Li-ion reaction to air and water creates hydrogen which also has been show to have explosive effects.

Data from FEMA suggest a gas-powered vehicle burns up to about 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit while a battery fire can reach over 2,500 F.

When it comes down to it, Li-ion is more dangerous. I've seen a few videos of vehicles literally blowing up.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807

Not a factual statement to say that every Bolt has been swapped. Not all owners got around to bothering or it was too onerous for them to bother. Then gm stopped replacing batteries in the newer models even though they were initially slated for replacement and giving them a software update instead. Those owners took a gamble on waiting it out to get a longer battery warranty. I got mine done the first week it became available. I think it's the same for the Kona. Not all owners bothered. What other EV's have had battery recalls?

Nor do we know what happened to the removed batteries. You're making an assumption.

How much more water does it take to douse the many many more ICEV fires than the very rare EV fires? Not on an individual basis. Total of all. My bet is way more water is used to put out the quantity of ICEV fires. On a per capita basis of course.

[hozzle]

Wow… I thought we went thru this before in another thread… it’s NOT the quantity it’s the intensity of the fires from EV batteries that should be of greater concern

So here's the thing: Energy is energy.

Due to differences in efficiency, a tank of gasoline that will get you 400km has more than double the energy that a battery with enough charge to drive 400km. Yes, batteries burn with a strong intensity...but so does a tank of gasoline.

Discuss this with a firefighter that has attended to an EV battery fire... lots to learn.