EV Battery Fires Not Really A Thing

[Jlabute]

Entire generations of Li-ion batteries have been swapped. Every Bolt ever made has had a new battery installed. This had made the Bolt one of the most polluting vehicles ever. Same with various other EVs that had used the same battery technology.

There is a large difference in burn temperatures between lithium ion and gasoline. Lithium Ion fires are difficult to extinguish. A fire can restart while the vehicle is being towed, or restart after the vehicle has been towed. There are many cells of which one can't determine the condition of. Li-ion reaction to air and water creates hydrogen which also has been show to have explosive effects.


When it comes down to it, Li-ion is more dangerous. I've seen a few videos of vehicles literally blowing up.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807

Not a factual statement to say that every Bolt has been swapped. Not all owners got around to bothering or it was too onerous for them to bother. Then gm stopped replacing batteries in the newer models even though they were initially slated for replacement and giving them a software update instead. Those owners took a gamble on waiting it out to get a longer battery warranty. I got mine done the first week it became available. I think it's the same for the Kona. Not all owners bothered. What other EV's have had battery recalls?

Nor do we know what happened to the removed batteries. You're making an assumption.

How much more water does it take to douse the many many more ICEV fires than the very rare EV fires? Not on an individual basis. Total of all. My bet is way more water is used to put out the quantity of ICEV fires. On a per capita basis of course.

Sure, I would guess more than half have been replaced up to this point. Still, what an environmental mess and waste. The energy to make the battery, recycle the battery (if that is done) is all wasted.

Surely every fire is different. It can take up to 150,000L of water to douse an EV fire. 2000L to 4000L for a normal car fire. That is a huge difference. EV fires are capable of causing worse collateral damage too. Have you seen small EV mobility devices in the news?

https://ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-wa ... ectric-car

So for "Sweden" (original post) if gas vehicles represent 20x the number of fires, it still takes less water. Twenty times 2000L to 4000L is still less than 150,000L. Not to mention, the fire can start up again and again.

In 2022, there were only 24 EV car fires in Sweden, representing 0.004 percent of battery-powered cars there. For cars running on gasoline or diesel fuel, the fire rate was 0.08 percent, or 20 times the frequency.

[LovemyBolt]

Surely every fire is different. It can take up to 150,000L of water to douse an EV fire. 2000L to 4000L for a normal car fire. That is a huge difference. EV fires are capable of causing worse collateral damage too. Have you seen small EV mobility devices in the news?

https://ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-wa ... ectric-car

So for "Sweden" (original post) if gas vehicles represent 20x the number of fires, it still takes less water. Twenty times 2000L to 4000L is still less than 150,000L. Not to mention, the fire can start up again and again.

In 2022, there were only 24 EV car fires in Sweden, representing 0.004 percent of battery-powered cars there. For cars running on gasoline or diesel fuel, the fire rate was 0.08 percent, or 20 times the frequency.

The 150000 L had a keyword in there - may . They talked about a fire using 90000 litres. So an ICEV takes almost 4000L.
According to a study by a US insurance outfit:
199,533 ICEV fires happened for the study period. That times 4000 = 798,132,000 litres of water
52 EV fires happened for the study period. That times 90000 = 004,680,000
That's a whole lot more total gross water used to put out ICEV's compared to EV's. In total.
Then look at the per capita numbers.
6,120,000 for the ICEV and 2,250,000 for EV's. Still less for EV's.
But indeed the amount of water varies. The sensational stories make it to the news. EV fires are rare. No one seems to care about that fact. ICEV fires happen all the time. No one cares because it's so commonplace.

[Jlabute]

Surely every fire is different. It can take up to 150,000L of water to douse an EV fire. 2000L to 4000L for a normal car fire. That is a huge difference. EV fires are capable of causing worse collateral damage too. Have you seen small EV mobility devices in the news?

https://ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-wa ... ectric-car

So for "Sweden" (original post) if gas vehicles represent 20x the number of fires, it still takes less water. Twenty times 2000L to 4000L is still less than 150,000L. Not to mention, the fire can start up again and again.

The 150000 L had a keyword in there - may . They talked about a fire using 90000 litres. So an ICEV takes almost 4000L.
According to a study by a US insurance outfit:
199,533 ICEV fires happened for the study period. That times 4000 = 798,132,000 litres of water
52 EV fires happened for the study period. That times 90000 = 004,680,000
That's a whole lot more total gross water used to put out ICEV's compared to EV's. In total.
Then look at the per capita numbers.
6,120,000 for the ICEV and 2,250,000 for EV's. Still less for EV's.
But indeed the amount of water varies. The sensational stories make it to the news. EV fires are rare. No one seems to care about that fact. ICEV fires happen all the time. No one cares because it's so commonplace.

Of course per capita numbers are smaller for EVs, because there are so few EVs. Sweden provided a population sample and percentage rate so the numbers would mean something when compared. Of course, there are a high percentage of much older ICE vehicles on the road too which is a data point that is ignored.

In 2022, there were only 24 EV car fires in Sweden, representing 0.004 percent of battery-powered cars there. For cars running on gasoline or diesel fuel, the fire rate was 0.08 percent, or 20 times the frequency.

EVs always (per incident) require a lot more water, a lot more man-time, more resources, more pre-vigilance not knowing if the vehicle will explode, and more post-vigilance knowing a fire could flare up again.

[spooker]

EVs always (per incident) require a lot more water, a lot more man-time, more resources, more pre-vigilance not knowing if the vehicle will explode, and more post-vigilance knowing a fire could flare up again.

Sure, if they don't know what they're doing ... which according to the article is almost half of the trained personnel ... which again, they've been fighting ICE fires for 100 years, they had to develop a level of knowledge and disseminate such ...

[LovemyBolt]

Of course per capita numbers are smaller for EVs, because there are so few EVs.

I'm not entirely sure you understand the concept of what per capita means. The insurance report I wrote about also used total numbers and not just per capita.
10 out of 100 equals 10 per capita.
100 out of 1000 equals 10 per capita.
1000 out of 10000 equals 10 per capita.
10000 out of 100000 equals 10 per capita.
100000 out of 1000000 equals 10 per capita.
ICEV was found to have 1530 per capita (presumably of all ICEV's on the road).
EV was found to have 25 (presumably of all EV's on the road). That takes into account the obvious fact that there are fewer EV's out there.

[Jlabute]

EVs always (per incident) require a lot more water, a lot more man-time, more resources, more pre-vigilance not knowing if the vehicle will explode, and more post-vigilance knowing a fire could flare up again.

Sure, if they don't know what they're doing ... which according to the article is almost half of the trained personnel ... which again, they've been fighting ICE fires for 100 years, they had to develop a level of knowledge and disseminate such ...

Regardless of training, water does not put Li-ion fires out. Water is mostly an attempt to cool the chemical reaction. The realization is, it is best to just let it burn out.

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/best ... n-f1fa2b53

https://doppleronline.ca/huntsville/if- ... t-it-burn/


I think part of the problem is the battery packs are large and under the vehicle frame. They are hard to get at as well.

[Jlabute]

Of course per capita numbers are smaller for EVs, because there are so few EVs.

I'm not entirely sure you understand the concept of what per capita means. The insurance report I wrote about also used total numbers and not just per capita.
10 out of 100 equals 10 per capita.
100 out of 1000 equals 10 per capita.
1000 out of 10000 equals 10 per capita.
10000 out of 100000 equals 10 per capita.
100000 out of 1000000 equals 10 per capita.
ICEV was found to have 1530 per capita (presumably of all ICEV's on the road).
EV was found to have 25 (presumably of all EV's on the road). That takes into account the obvious fact that there are fewer EV's out there.

Right, so there are fewer resources used to put out EV fires... because no one wants EVs :-)

[hozzle]

EVs always (per incident) require a lot more water, a lot more man-time, more resources, more pre-vigilance not knowing if the vehicle will explode, and more post-vigilance knowing a fire could flare up again.

Sure, if they don't know what they're doing ... which according to the article is almost half of the trained personnel ... which again, they've been fighting ICE fires for 100 years, they had to develop a level of knowledge and disseminate such ...

Misleading then?... there was an EV fire this summer... the fire fighters were on it for 20 hrs... they knew what they were doing.

[DANSPEED]

Two words, thermal runaway! An unpredictable and mostly uncontrollable phenomenon potentially found in all EV lithium-ion batteries today. A ticking time bomb! ICE fires are predictable; gasoline plus vapor plus spark equals fire. Thermal runaway isn't.

Honeywell, Thermal runaway and the importance of EV battery safety

Though EV battery fires are relatively rare, occurring at a rate of roughly 25 per 100,000 EVs sold, their repercussions are serious enough to warrant focused attention to this issue. EV fires can be unpredictable: a recent study suggests that one third of EV fires occur when the vehicle is parked, not moving and not charging.

If just one EV catches fire due to thermal runaway it means they all could. Until battery manufacturers eliminate this problem or design a new fail-safe battery I wouldn't touch a new EV with a ten-foot pole or a used EV with a thousand-foot pole!

[Jlabute]

Two words, thermal runaway! An unpredictable and mostly uncontrollable phenomenon potentially found in all EV lithium-ion batteries today. A ticking time bomb! ICE fires are predictable; gasoline plus vapor plus spark equals fire. Thermal runaway isn't.

Honeywell, Thermal runaway and the importance of EV battery safety

Though EV battery fires are relatively rare, occurring at a rate of roughly 25 per 100,000 EVs sold, their repercussions are serious enough to warrant focused attention to this issue. EV fires can be unpredictable: a recent study suggests that one third of EV fires occur when the vehicle is parked, not moving and not charging.

If just one EV catches fire due to thermal runaway it means they all could. Until battery manufacturers eliminate this problem or design a new fail-safe battery I wouldn't touch a new EV with a ten-foot pole or a used EV with a thousand-foot pole!

Right. It is too difficult to gauge the health of a battery. It makes it hard to trust a used EV. There are thousands of individual cells all subject to manufacturing defects, and mechanical stress. At any time if just one cell fails, say good-bye to the whole mess.

This is why such gentle accidents render these expensive vehicles worthless. If all vehicles were EVs, ICBC would have a massive battery related problem if not so much from manufacturing defects, but accidents.

[LovemyBolt]

Until battery manufacturers eliminate this problem or design a new fail-safe battery I wouldn't touch a new EV with a ten-foot pole or a used EV with a thousand-foot pole!

Then I guess you need a 29,000 foot pole for an ICEV or start walking, because the chances of an ICEV fire are much higher.
Motortrend quotes from that Swedish study:
According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.

And hybrids are worse than full BEV.

Again, everybody, it's about the per capita frequency - minimal - not the individual result. You even have a 1 in 324 chance of being injured or killed being hit by or colliding with a vehicle. Stay home in your padded room if you're that worried about risk.

[DANSPEED]

Then I guess you need a 29,000 foot pole for an ICEV or start walking, because the chances of an ICEV fire are much higher.
Motortrend quotes from that Swedish study:
According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.

And hybrids are worse than full BEV.

Again, everybody, it's about the per capita frequency - minimal - not the individual result. You even have a 1 in 324 chance of being injured or killed being hit by or colliding with a vehicle. Stay home in your padded room if you're that worried about risk.

I think your missing the point. EV lithium battery fires are unpredictable. Webster's dictionary, "unpredictable - not able to be known or declared in advance ... tending to behave in ways that cannot be predicted." I'll assume most if not all ICE fires are caused by a fuel leak and a spark or heat source of some kind. Excluding a car accident a fuel leak can be unpredictable but with regular vehicle inspections and proper safety procedures when handling combustible liquid fuels avoidable. An EV fire due to thermal runaway can happen at anytime! It's a potential inherent defect plaguing all lithium batteries made today. An internal short sounds very unpredictable if you ask me. Okay, I agree the problem is rare, that's assuming there's no major coverups taking place by manufacturers and car dealerships, but it's still there. Until it's corrected I'd only drive an EV wearing a race approved fire suit and my left hand on the door handle!

[spooker]

I think your missing the point. EV lithium battery fires are unpredictable. Webster's dictionary, "unpredictable - not able to be known or declared in advance ... tending to behave in ways that cannot be predicted." I'll assume most if not all ICE fires are caused by a fuel leak and a spark or heat source of some kind. Excluding a car accident a fuel leak can be unpredictable but with regular vehicle inspections and proper safety procedures when handling combustible liquid fuels avoidable. An EV fire due to thermal runaway can happen at anytime! It's a potential inherent defect plaguing all lithium batteries made today. An internal short sounds very unpredictable if you ask me. Okay, I agree the problem is rare, that's assuming there's no major coverups taking place by manufacturers and car dealerships, but it's still there. Until it's corrected I'd only drive an EV wearing a race approved fire suit and my left hand on the door handle!

All fires are unpredictable ... I don't think any of the ICE fires were expected ... but part of the problem with a direct comparison is that ICE has been around for 100 years, it's become routine and all of the initial gotchas have been engineered out of the systems ... EVs don't have that level of experience yet, and the way some people talk they never will if the naysayers have their way ...

[LovemyBolt]

I think your missing the point. EV lithium battery fires are unpredictable. Webster's dictionary, "unpredictable - not able to be known or declared in advance ... tending to behave in ways that cannot be predicted." I'll assume most if not all ICE fires are caused by a fuel leak and a spark or heat source of some kind. Excluding a car accident a fuel leak can be unpredictable but with regular vehicle inspections and proper safety procedures when handling combustible liquid fuels avoidable. An EV fire due to thermal runaway can happen at anytime! It's a potential inherent defect plaguing all lithium batteries made today. An internal short sounds very unpredictable if you ask me. Okay, I agree the problem is rare, that's assuming there's no major coverups taking place by manufacturers and car dealerships, but it's still there. Until it's corrected I'd only drive an EV wearing a race approved fire suit and my left hand on the door handle!

What cover-up? We can all be darn sure that we'll hear about every little fire involving an EV. It must be a large-scale cover-up to not hear about every ICEV fire then. Because they are far more frequent and we rarely hear about them.
And there have been many more ICEV's recalled for fire risk than what has been recalled for EV's.
I have not heard of a completed recall Bolt battery fire since the fall of 2021. That's over two years now. They're still selling. I see lots on the road.
Edit: rightly reminded below that there was a fire in August '23. No final confirmation that it was a battery fire but still. So I changed the wording a little here.

[hozzle]

What cover-up? We can all be darn sure that we'll hear about every little fire involving an EV. It must be a large-scale cover-up to not hear about every ICEV fire then. Because they are far more frequent and we rarely hear about them.
And there have been many more ICEV's recalled for fire risk than what has been recalled for EV's.
I have not heard of a Bolt fire since the fall of 2021. That's over two years now. They're still selling. I see lots on the road.

Just an FYI... there are Bolt fires occurring one official report was Aug 5th, 2023...
Full disclosure... it was a 2021 Bolt and the leasee couldn't get the battery replacement due to the shortage and they did not get the free software installed to limit max charge to 90%




There are also an unsubstantiated claims of a 2023 Bolt caught fire in Oct 2023.
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/2023- ... elp.52406/

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