Furnace vs cold weather

[DANSPEED]

How much more is your furnace cycling per hour with this cold weather?

Two years ago I replaced a 47 year old Olsen single stage 130,000 BTU gas furnace with a Carrier 97% high efficient two stage 80,000 BTU furnace and a new Ecobee smart thermostat. The installer said my Olsen was probably 60% efficient at best when new. He said I'm going to save BIG on my heating bills. Guess what, little savings if any! Even with the thermostat set to 18C the furnace seems to cycle a lot more and run longer compared to my old Olsen. It's like putting a tiny portable heater in a large gymnasium and wondering why it's not heating the space properly. The Olsen would turn on and throw out 130,000 BTU's and heat the house quickly. Maybe it wasn't efficient but it wasn't on for very long.

Ecobee said it's cycling a lot but has no solution other than to disable stage 1. The installer suggested I contact FortisBC to get the meter changed then told me I don't have enough insulation. I didn't change the insulation, I just bought a new furnace because I thought I'd save on my heating bills like FortisBC and the heating company said I would.

I should have never upgraded, the old Olsen was working fine!

[Glacier]

The price went up so the savings in gas usage you get has been eaten up by the higher price.

[Urban Cowboy]

Heat pump here and it's been going nonstop despite the thermostat being set to 17°C.

[Bsuds]

2 stage means the fan will run to circulate air which helps heat/cool better. So it's not always actually heating.

Of course the way the weather is this last week or so it's going to run more.

[Bigbacardi]

130000 is the input. Only output matters.
130k@60%=78kbtu output
80k@97%=77.6kbtu output
Virtually the same size.

Carrier never made a 2 stage @97% afue
2 stage was @96%
Modulating(40stg) @ 97%

It is way more efficient to run longer then to short cycle.
Keep in mind, how the furnace was set up to run & staging, has a lot to do with comfort.

[Bigbacardi]

2 stage means the fan will run to circulate air which helps heat/cool better. So it's not always actually heating.

Of course the way the weather is this last week or so it's going to run more.

That is not quite correct.
2 stage refers to the stages of capacity from the gas valve.
The fan will run at dif speeds dependant on level of gas stage
Continuous fan is possible on almost all furnaces.
Carrier was the first one to enable dif fan speeds from cycling the fan switch on/off.
The advantage of this is that most other brands gave full fan capacity whenever the fan switch was in the on position.
Carrier would give you the minimum available from control board/fan motor.
Continuous fan at low speed constantly moves air at a low velocity to counter air stratification.

[Glacier]

Replacing a 45 year old furnace makes sense, but certain companies (and the government) are always pushing you to replace your furnace long before you should. If you go from 80% to 97% efficiency, the payback is like 30 years or more. Meanwhile, high efficiency furnaces break down more, so you potentially have more maintenance costs.

A certain company that rhymes with rocks & guns sure likes to convince you to get a new $7,000 system when you could fix your own furnace for under $500. Don't fall for it.

[DANSPEED]

I had six estimates for a new furnace, and out of those only one company told me straight out they couldn't guarantee me I'd save any money on my heating bills! All the other companies, especially the one that rhymes with "mace" told me my old Olsen was the worst furnace ever made for efficiency. One company said I'm wasting $20 bills right up the stack!

130000 is the input. Only output matters.
130k@60%=78kbtu output
80k@97%=77.6kbtu output
Virtually the same size.

Carrier never made a 2 stage @97% afue
2 stage was @96%
Modulating(40stg) @ 97%

It is way more efficient to run longer then to short cycle.
Keep in mind, how the furnace was set up to run & staging, has a lot to do with comfort.

Yes I agree now, but the sales guy for "mace" told me I'd be saving 37 cents for every $1 of gas I used. Those were his words. He was very convincing since my Olsen was 47 years old!

Something else I found puzzling. My roof always starts melting around the same time as my neighbors. Now with the new furnace my roof starts to melt almost two weeks earlier! The installer said I don't have enough insulation. BS!

This Ecobee isn't very smart either. It knows the outside temperature from the internet, so why even start on stage 1 at -26C outside and run for ten minutes then decide it's not heating fast enough so it switches to stage 2 to complete the cycle. That's just wasting gas! Ecobee told me to set it to Auto stage 1 be couldn't give me any details on what Auto mode actually does.

[Jlabute]

How much more is your furnace cycling per hour with this cold weather?

Two years ago I replaced a 47 year old Olsen single stage 130,000 BTU gas furnace with a Carrier 97% high efficient two stage 80,000 BTU furnace and a new Ecobee smart thermostat. The installer said my Olsen was probably 60% efficient at best when new. He said I'm going to save BIG on my heating bills. Guess what, little savings if any! Even with the thermostat set to 18C the furnace seems to cycle a lot more and run longer compared to my old Olsen. It's like putting a tiny portable heater in a large gymnasium and wondering why it's not heating the space properly. The Olsen would turn on and throw out 130,000 BTU's and heat the house quickly. Maybe it wasn't efficient but it wasn't on for very long.

Ecobee said it's cycling a lot but has no solution other than to disable stage 1. The installer suggested I contact FortisBC to get the meter changed then told me I don't have enough insulation. I didn't change the insulation, I just bought a new furnace because I thought I'd save on my heating bills like FortisBC and the heating company said I would.

I should have never upgraded, the old Olsen was working fine!

HA! That is pretty much what I did! Last year I replaced my old 'D' sized cabinet 120,000btu furnace, and AC, with a new 66,000btu furnace, AC, and premium Ecobee thermostat. My furnace is a two stage, variable speed, 96% AFUE Lennox. My old furnace had a 2 HP blower that could suck cardboard air filters in. I had to make sure I used strong ones. That is not an issue any longer. LOL.

I don't know why yours would be 'cycling' more than usual. That could be dependent on a number of things. Perhaps the hysteresis temperature range is too narrow? After-all you do have a new thermostat. If you are trying to maintain temperature within 0.5C rather than 1.0C, it will cycle more often. Even though the fan may be on more depending on the configuration, it doesn't mean you are using more natural gas.

My Ecobee reports to me I have savings over that of my neighbors and previous year. Fricken heck if I know how it accurately fingers that out. It would make sense since I would think it is at least 20% or so more efficient. I know I've saved money on air conditioning.

I also set up my Ecobee to circulate air for at least 10 minutes of every hour. My experience is less noise, but it takes longer to heat up the home of course. I went for a new heating/cooling system because my old system was not paired well, and the AC was totally dead. Nice rebates at the time even for the Ecobee.

[TylerM4]

When we replaced our furnace a few years ago, the HVAC company wanted to put in a 60k BTU unit (high efficiency). I talked them into going the next size up (75k BTU) for only a few $$ more.

Weeks like this I'm glad I did. It still takes the furnace approx 2 hours to warm the house in the morning from the 17* sleep setting to the 20* awake setting when it's -20* outside. The 60k BTU unit would have been running non-stop. Yes, it's at risk of short-cycling but I mitigate that by using a larger hysteresis setting on the thermostat (switched to +/- 1* vs +/- 0.5*)

[DANSPEED]

HA! That is pretty much what I did! Last year I replaced my old 'D' sized cabinet 120,000btu furnace, and AC, with a new 66,000btu furnace, AC, and premium Ecobee thermostat. My furnace is a two stage, variable speed, 96% AFUE Lennox. My old furnace had a 2 HP blower that could suck cardboard air filters in. I had to make sure I used strong ones. That is not an issue any longer. LOL.

I don't know why yours would be 'cycling' more than usual. That could be dependent on a number of things. Perhaps the hysteresis temperature range is too narrow? After-all you do have a new thermostat. Even though the fan may be on more depending on the configuration, it doesn't mean you are using more natural gas.

My Ecobee reports to me I have savings over that of my neighbors and previous year. Fricken heck if I know how it accurately fingers that out. It would make sense since I would think it is at least 20% or so more efficient. I know I've saved money on air conditioning.

I also set up my Ecobee to circulate air for at least 10 minutes of every hour. My experience is less noise, but it takes longer to heat up the home of course. I went for a new heating/cooling system because my old system was not paired well, and the AC was totally dead. Nice rebates at the time even for the Ecobee.

So your saving money on heating compared to your old furnace?

I got three gas bills after the installation and no savings! The first bill was a great comparison because the outside temperatures were only a few degrees difference from the year before. The sales guy tried telling me that temperature difference is HUGE, then he asked me if I was looking at the total on the bills instead of the gas used. What a joke! That's when he suggested I should get the gas meter changed. A month later he has one of his "boys" come out to take a look at it. The tech does the math that Bigbacardi showed here and tells me I'll never see the savings his sales guy said I would get! WHAT? I'm thinking now that my old Olsen was much better than 60% efficient.

I tried running the fan 24/7 like Ecobee suggested and that just made the entire house equally cold. I don't really understand the point of stage 1 anyways. It's half the BTU's as stage 2 so it runs twice as long or even longer depending on the outside temperature (heat loss) to complete the cycle. Where's the savings in that?

Ecobee kept emailing me those stupid monthly usage comparison reports too! They make no sense, one month I'd be in the top 90% in my area (yippee!) then the next month it show I was below 75% (bummer!). I asked Ecobee where they're getting this data from and they couldn't tell me. I finally pulled the plug (internet) on Ecobee when they started emailing me with great furnace filter deals!

The real kicker is, my old Olsen was easy to repair and would never die. New high efficient furnaces are only good for maybe 15 years max and if the controller board or primary heat exchanger fails after the warranty is over they say it's cheaper just to get a new furnace.

[DANSPEED]

When we replaced our furnace a few years ago, the HVAC company wanted to put in a 60k BTU unit (high efficiency). I talked them into going the next size up (75k BTU) for only a few $$ more.

Weeks like this I'm glad I did. It still takes the furnace approx 2 hours to warm the house in the morning from the 17* sleep setting to the 20* awake setting when it's -20* outside. The 60k BTU unit would have been running non-stop. Yes, it's at risk of short-cycling but I mitigate that by using a larger hysteresis setting on the thermostat (switched to +/- 1* vs +/- 0.5*)

So your seeing a savings?

FortisBS told me to keep the thermostat below 20C to save on heating costs. I'm at 18C now and nothing! Their website says to upgrade your old furnace to a new high efficiency furnace and save on your heating bills. They even gave me a $1000 rebate for saving nothing.

[TylerM4]

So your seeing a savings?

FortisBS told me to keep the thermostat below 20C to save on heating costs. I'm at 18C now and nothing! Their website says to upgrade your old furnace to a new high efficiency furnace and save on your heating bills. They even gave me a $1000 rebate for saving nothing.

Yes in a way.

We went from a 60% efficient to a 95% efficient setup. But at the same time I had build a detected garage and installed a gas heater to heat it. Final result: Cost me the same to heat both the house and garage as it cost to heat just the house with the old furnace.

Having said that - I upgraded the furnace because the old one was on it's last leg and was 20+ years old. After having to repair in 3 times in 2 years it was clear that it was going to cost me more to keep repairing it than to replace with something newer and more efficient. Plus I wanted to install central AC and it's much more cost effective to do that while also replacing the furnace.

[Jlabute]

So your saving money on heating compared to your old furnace?

I got three gas bills after the installation and no savings! The first bill was a great comparison because the outside temperatures were only a few degrees difference from the year before. The sales guy tried telling me that temperature difference is HUGE, then he asked me if I was looking at the total on the bills instead of the gas used. What a joke! That's when he suggested I should get the gas meter changed. A month later he has one of his "boys" come out to take a look at it. The tech does the math that Bigbacardi showed here and tells me I'll never see the savings his sales guy said I would get! WHAT? I'm thinking now that my old Olsen was much better than 60% efficient.

I tried running the fan 24/7 like Ecobee suggested and that just made the entire house equally cold. I don't really understand the point of stage 1 anyways. It's half the BTU's as stage 2 so it runs twice as long or even longer depending on the outside temperature (heat loss) to complete the cycle. Where's the savings in that?

Ecobee kept emailing me those stupid monthly usage comparison reports too! They make no sense, one month I'd be in the top 90% in my area (yippee!) then the next month it show I was below 75% (bummer!). I asked Ecobee where they're getting this data from and they couldn't tell me. I finally pulled the plug (internet) on Ecobee when they started emailing me with great furnace filter deals!

The real kicker is, my old Olsen was easy to repair and would never die. New high efficient furnaces are only good for maybe 15 years max and if the controller board or primary heat exchanger fails after the warranty is over they say it's cheaper just to get a new furnace.

Natural gas contains 36,303 BTUs per cubic meter. It matters at what efficiency you consume the gas:

That cubic meter of gas will give you 21,782 BTU at 60% efficiency,
or it will give you 35,214 BTU at 97% efficiency.

So LESS natural gas is required to obtain the same number of BTUs at a higher efficiency.


I am saving money, although as lifestyles and outdoor average temperatures change, I can't say exactly when my investment will pay off. I have not been tracking it close enough.

Those Ecobee notifications can be annoying. What is more annoying is how do they know? lol. I agree with reparability. My old furnace would just work, and do it well. It came to a point though where maintaining the AC with the same 2 HP blower wasn't keeping the house cool so I junked the whole thing. Too few people had good ideas on how to make it work properly. I think the previous owner threw together a hodgepodge of whatever he could find.

[DANSPEED]

So your seeing a savings?

FortisBS told me to keep the thermostat below 20C to save on heating costs. I'm at 18C now and nothing! Their website says to upgrade your old furnace to a new high efficiency furnace and save on your heating bills. They even gave me a $1000 rebate for saving nothing.

Yes in a way.

We went from a 60% efficient to a 95% efficient setup. But at the same time I had build a detected garage and installed a gas heater to heat it. Final result: Cost me the same to heat both the house and garage as it cost to heat just the house with the old furnace.

How big is the garage? Is it well insulated?

My old Olsen got hot, I mean really hot. The fan motor was underrated so the box would heat up unless I used the thinnest cheapest filters. The flue was so hot you'd burn your fingers if you touched it. Too me that looked like wasted heat. The new furnace is almost cold. The PVC output vent is just warmish. Looking back now my hot Olsen was actually heating up my basement and also the ceiling above. The basement is cold now. Wet boots and jackets will never dry like they used too!