Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 years

User avatar
brentville
Fledgling
Posts: 150
Joined: Oct 14th, 2008, 4:25 pm

Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 years

Post by brentville »

Okanagan Lake "full pool" is 342.48 metres. "full pool" means exactly that, any higher and it overflows = "flood". Global News reported today that Okanagan Lake has exceeded "full pool", FLOODED, 4 out of the last 5 years. Does anyone think this is just a run of bad luck?

The Province ensures properties downstream of Penticton have sufficient water during a drought. The idea is sound but I take issue with repetitive failures followed by lies, lame excuses and refusal to take responsibility for one's actions. "When there is no penalty for failure, failures proliferate." There are simple and inexpensive alternatives which would eliminate flooding but the Province doesn't seem to care about 'risk management' or better solutions.

The Ministry of Forests manipulates Okanagan Lake levels with the use of the dam in Penticton. This must take place months in advance yet is based on nothing more than an 'educated guess' at next years inflow. They'll tell you that they use a sophisticated computer program to reliably plan lake levels months in advance...but it's nothing more than a 'crap-shoot'. I sent an email to the Co-author of the program the Ministry uses after the 2017 flooding and here it is with his reply:

Image

They use data that's "often barely useable" from other Government agencies with "limited "skill's". Have the Marx Brothers been given the reins?

Why solve the problem when you can just write a few technical reports, draft a colourful map to comfort those that were flooded out and create a next to useless website for it?:
The Okanagan Basin Water Board has launched a new website called the Okanagan Water Story which wasn't created to reduce flood risk but merely "to increase community understanding of the flood hazard in the Okanagan watershed..."
This is exactly what you need as your property is being washed away! NOT

This mismanagement of Okanagan Lake needs to stop!
LANDM
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 11576
Joined: Sep 18th, 2009, 11:58 am

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by LANDM »

brentville wrote:Okanagan Lake "full pool" is 342.48 metres. "full pool" means exactly that, any higher and it overflows = "flood". Global News reported today that Okanagan Lake has exceeded "full pool", FLOODED, 4 out of the last 5 years. Does anyone think this is just a run of bad luck?

The Province ensures properties downstream of Penticton have sufficient water during a drought. The idea is sound but I take issue with repetitive failures followed by lies, lame excuses and refusal to take responsibility for one's actions. "When there is no penalty for failure, failures proliferate." There are simple and inexpensive alternatives which would eliminate flooding but the Province doesn't seem to care about 'risk management' or better solutions.

The Ministry of Forests manipulates Okanagan Lake levels with the use of the dam in Penticton. This must take place months in advance yet is based on nothing more than an 'educated guess' at next years inflow. They'll tell you that they use a sophisticated computer program to reliably plan lake levels months in advance...but it's nothing more than a 'crap-shoot'. I sent an email to the Co-author of the program the Ministry uses after the 2017 flooding and here it is with his reply:

Image

They use data that's "often barely useable" from other Government agencies with "limited "skill's". Have the Marx Brothers been given the reins?

Why solve the problem when you can just write a few technical reports, draft a colourful map to comfort those that were flooded out and create a next to useless website for it?:
The Okanagan Basin Water Board has launched a new website called the Okanagan Water Story which wasn't created to reduce flood risk but merely "to increase community understanding of the flood hazard in the Okanagan watershed..."
This is exactly what you need as your property is being washed away! NOT

This mismanagement of Okanagan Lake needs to stop!

Over the last two or three years you have posted this exact same email image probably 5-10 times. Why post the same thing over and over for years?

How is the court case going?
In 2017, it was going better than expected, as seen below.
In 2018 you were negotiating terms, also as seen below.

Re: Permanent Solution to Okanagan Lake Flooding
by brentville » Apr 9th, 2018, 8:09 pm
GordonH wrote:
brentville how is your court case against the Province going.

Currently negotiating terms.
It all comes down to what % at what incremental amount.
Almost need a Lawyer just to walk thru Retainer Agreements.




Re: 2017 Okanagan Lake Flood Damage Class Action Suit
by brentville » Aug 2nd, 2017, 4:13 pm
Even Steven wrote:
So, how's the class action suit going? Let me guess - it didn't go anywhere beyond moaning on Castanet forums.

Sorry but it's actually going better than I expected.
What is wrong with some of you people....waterfront envy?
If the Fire Dept stuffed a hose through your front door and opened-r-up, when there was no fire or even smoke, I suppose you wouldn't object huh?


Your forum posts and your public letters haven’t changed, right down to "the Marx Brothers".
What’s up?
What do you hope to get with your mission here?
You and 71 others Like this post
User avatar
brentville
Fledgling
Posts: 150
Joined: Oct 14th, 2008, 4:25 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by brentville »

"you have posted this exact same email image probably 5-10 times"
Good idea....50 or 100 times would be much better...then more people, with an IQ larger than my shoe size, will be able to see what a joke the Ministry and Okanagan Basin Water Board truly are.

"What do you hope to get with your mission here?"
The Ministry has exceeded 'full pool' 4 out of 5 years running, lied to everyone and deliberately used data they KNEW was garbage. To allow them to flood the lake year after year without any repercussions is ludicrous. To do so when they know options exist that could eliminate 'flood risk' entirely is just criminal. EVERYONE SHOULD BE MADE AWARE OF THIS!

If you'd like to defend the Ministry here then do so and with facts please.....if not, I'm not interested in the usual rhetorical garbage so please go annoy someone else.
Gilchy
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2635
Joined: Nov 19th, 2010, 6:51 am

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by Gilchy »

I’m curious, what are these obvious tools they should use to accurately forecast weather and water inflow days, weeks and months out?
User avatar
GordonH
Grumpy Old Bleep
Posts: 30888
Joined: Oct 4th, 2008, 7:21 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by GordonH »

Since it has been brought up I will ask again here, brentville how is your court-case going with the Provincial government. Or with any level of government with regards to Okanagan Lake flooding.
"You've Gotta' Ask Yourself A Question. 'Do I Feel Lucky?' Well Do Ya...PUNK?" Harry Callahan
I don't care whether people like me or dislike me. I'm not on earth to win any popularity contests.
User avatar
brentville
Fledgling
Posts: 150
Joined: Oct 14th, 2008, 4:25 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by brentville »

Gilchy wrote:I’m curious, what are these obvious tools they should use to accurately forecast weather and water inflow days, weeks and months out?
Thank you for the extremely relevant question.

There are 1000 ways to skin the proverbial cat. One inexpensive alternative is as simple as it gets, eliminates 'flooding' and totally scraps the need for the Ministry to forecast 'Jack'. There is approx. a 5.2 meter drop between Okanagan and Skaha lakes so let gravity do the work. Set the Penticton dam flood gates to the natural lake level, which is 1.2 meters below "full pool", weld them there and throw away the key. Then install two x 1.2 meter pipes roughly 4 meters below Okanagan Lake 'full pool' and allow these to gravity feed water into the Penticton channel if it's needed. Control could be as simple and inexpensive as a butterfly valve in each pipe. If downstream users require more water then merely open a valve.

By the way, this 'horse and pony show' is totally for benefit of downstream users yet they haven't contributed a dime towards maintenance, operations or infrastructure. They also don't contribute towards damages caused by the Ministry's screw-ups. Downstream users get free water and when the Ministry screws-up the Upstream users pay for it...sounds fair huh?

Downstream users want a guaranteed supply of water so make them pay for it. As it stands, the Ministry blames GOD and 'climate change'...GOD doesn't operate dams and didn't create 'climate change' so quit trying to blame him/her for flood damages caused directly by Provincial mismanagement.

If this or a similar alternate was installed, Okanagan Lake could never reach 'full pool' ever again. You may question my ability to design such infrastructure. As a retired Civil & Structural Contractor, I redesigned, tendered alternate designs and constructed many projects with values exceeding $50 million for entities such as BC Hydro, GVS&DD, CNR, CPR, BCR, Municipalities and many others. I think that qualifies me as an expert on the subject of Civil & Structural alternate design.
User avatar
GordonH
Grumpy Old Bleep
Posts: 30888
Joined: Oct 4th, 2008, 7:21 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by GordonH »

You do realize all of your ideas need full approval by Washington State & our own Federal government, since it’s considered international waters.

Good luck with that

added: so no news on your court case.
Last edited by GordonH on Jun 23rd, 2020, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"You've Gotta' Ask Yourself A Question. 'Do I Feel Lucky?' Well Do Ya...PUNK?" Harry Callahan
I don't care whether people like me or dislike me. I'm not on earth to win any popularity contests.
Gilchy
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2635
Joined: Nov 19th, 2010, 6:51 am

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by Gilchy »

And Okanagan Lake flooding predates the dam and channel, so short of artifically pushing higher amounts of water downstream (literally pushing the problem down the road) flooding would still occur.

Water is a nasty creature, and defeats the best-laid plans.
LANDM
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 11576
Joined: Sep 18th, 2009, 11:58 am

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by LANDM »

brentville wrote:
Gilchy wrote:I’m curious, what are these obvious tools they should use to accurately forecast weather and water inflow days, weeks and months out?
Thank you for the extremely relevant question.

There are 1000 ways to skin the proverbial cat. One inexpensive alternative is as simple as it gets, eliminates 'flooding' and totally scraps the need for the Ministry to forecast 'Jack'. There is approx. a 5.2 meter drop between Okanagan and Skaha lakes so let gravity do the work. Set the Penticton dam flood gates to the natural lake level, which is 1.2 meters below "full pool", weld them there and throw away the key. Then install two x 1.2 meter pipes roughly 4 meters below Okanagan Lake 'full pool' and allow these to gravity feed water into the Penticton channel if it's needed. Control could be as simple and inexpensive as a butterfly valve in each pipe. If downstream users require more water then merely open a valve.

By the way, this 'horse and pony show' is totally for benefit of downstream users yet they haven't contributed a dime towards maintenance, operations or infrastructure. They also don't contribute towards damages caused by the Ministry's screw-ups. Downstream users get free water and when the Ministry screws-up the Upstream users pay for it...sounds fair huh?

Downstream users want a guaranteed supply of water so make them pay for it. As it stands, the Ministry blames GOD and 'climate change'...GOD doesn't operate dams and didn't create 'climate change' so quit trying to blame him/her for flood damages caused directly by Provincial mismanagement.

If this or a similar alternate was installed, Okanagan Lake could never reach 'full pool' ever again. You may question my ability to design such infrastructure. As a retired Civil & Structural Contractor, I redesigned, tendered alternate designs and constructed many projects with values exceeding $50 million for entities such as BC Hydro, GVS&DD, CNR, CPR, BCR, Municipalities and many others. I think that qualifies me as an expert on the subject of Civil & Structural alternate design.


It’s called water management. It is both appropriate and used everywhere, where possible.
The simple fact that you are clearly fuelled by the loss of your foreshore improvements, like so many others in 2017, makes the repetitive threads a bit sad.
The inaccurate representation that’s has been used in some posts (eg. Your property pin is now 30’ out in the lake) is simply untrue based on looking at the particular property in question.

So, back to the question that you have been asked, how is the lawsuit going?
You and 71 others Like this post
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
Posts: 33703
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by Glacier »

I started reading the OP, and started banging my head on my keyboard, so had to stop.

For the umpteenth time, the goal is to EXCEED "full pool" most years. Full pool is the target MINIMUM every year. If it's a dry spring, then they don't, but besides that, the level is reached. The reason for this is so there's enough water downstream if you have severe drought over the summer.

Just because you're a rich owner on the lake who was not bright enough to understand this, doesn't mean we should destroy millions of dollars in crops downriver so you can have an extra 10 feet of sand on your beach.

Someone shoot me.
The worst part about a 7 day lockdown is the first 4 months.
User avatar
brentville
Fledgling
Posts: 150
Joined: Oct 14th, 2008, 4:25 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by brentville »

"Full pool is the target MINIMUM every year."
Just what do you think the term"full pool" is if not the maximum amount a reservoir can hold before it overflows?
Please provide your proof that the Ministry's definition of "full pool" is somehow different.

"Just because you're a rich owner on the lake who was not bright enough to understand this..."
Sour grapes huh? I'm sorry that the majority of you that like to type for the sake of typing don't own waterfront property...maybe you should have made better life choices.

Did you even bother to READ the email from Hyatt and if so did you comprehend the consequences of the Ministry using data known to be unreliable. They blamed the 2017 flooding and resulting damages on 'Climate Change' yet this email clearly details the actual cause of the flooding. THE DATA WAS KNOWN TO BE GARBAGE AND THEY USED IT ANYWAY.

------ WATER SUSTAINABILITY ACT -----
This ACT under Section 29 defines responsibilities of Dam Operators in the Province.
Rights and responsibilities of applicants and holders
29 (1) The following persons must exercise reasonable care to avoid damaging land, works, trees or other property of another person:

(a) an applicant for an authorization, change approval, drilling authorization or permit;

(b) the holder of an authorization, change approval, drilling authorization or permit;

(c) a person who, in accordance with the regulations or an order of the comptroller, a water manager or an engineer, makes changes in and about a stream or diverts or uses, including stores, water.

(2) A person referred to in subsection (1) (a), (b) or (c) must properly inspect, maintain and repair works constructed, operated or used by the person,

(a) in accordance with any prescribed requirements,

(b) in accordance with an order, and

(c) in a manner that ensures that the works do not cause a significant risk of harm to public safety, the environment, land or other property.

The ACT does not limit liability for making mistakes. If ones actions causes property damage, then you're liable!
-----

Just because one owns waterfront doesn't mean their property rights should be trampled on. There are simple alternatives (I detailed just one) to supplying downstream water that eliminate the risk of flooding. The Ministry should have performed a 'risk assessment' years ago and that would have been the end of all this idiotic balancing act of flood damage vs downstream supply. In an intelligent world where logic prevails, your "target MINIMUM" issue becomes a mute point.
User avatar
Fancy
Insanely Prolific
Posts: 59648
Joined: Apr 15th, 2006, 6:23 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by Fancy »

Glacier wrote:Just because you're a rich owner on the lake ...

Are you sure he's rich?
Truths can be backed up by facts - do you have any?
Fancy this, Fancy that and by the way, T*t for Tat
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3490
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by Sparki55 »

I'm with brentville.... Just keep the lake a little below "full pool" so that we have some buffer space should heavy rain and snowmelt cause a drastic, quick rising lake situation.

It's not like we lack water. We're also not watering grass 5 months of the year so we can "recoup" the lake level during periods of less use.

To put a bunch of restrictions and due process and international water rights, etc. infront of solving the issue shows how much people actually care to do the right thing.
Boosted632
Übergod
Posts: 1721
Joined: Oct 14th, 2019, 1:23 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by Boosted632 »

removed
Last edited by Catsumi on Jun 23rd, 2020, 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Making it personal
I wouldn't Have to manage my anger if people could learn to manage their STUPIDITY
User avatar
brentville
Fledgling
Posts: 150
Joined: Oct 14th, 2008, 4:25 pm

Re: Okanagan Lake exceeds "full pool" 4 out of the last 5 ye

Post by brentville »

Sparki55 wrote:I'm with brentville.... Just keep the lake a little below "full pool" so that we have some buffer space should heavy rain and snowmelt cause a drastic, quick rising lake situation.

It's not like we lack water. We're also not watering grass 5 months of the year so we can "recoup" the lake level during periods of less use.

To put a bunch of restrictions and due process and international water rights, etc. infront of solving the issue shows how much people actually care to do the right thing.


"..shows how much people actually care to do the right thing." My sentiments exactly!

I actually applaud the Province for attempting to ensure all of the valley has sufficient water. I only take issue with the moronic methods used. Oliver and Osoyoos require more and more water every year and therefore the amount of water retained in Okanagan Lake must also increase annually. Continuing as if nothing is wrong with their methods translates into not 'if the lake will flood again' but 'when'. This is a guaranteed recipe for disaster yet the Ministry remains blind to options that could eliminate flood risk.

Speaking of "flood risk", the Province has no idea what the term means. The Province admits altering lake levels risk damage to private properties. By continuing with a known risk, like it or not, they have accepted all liability of that risk yet refuse to pay for damages directly caused by their failure to control the risk.

Return to “2020 Flood Watch”