Where's The Affordable Housing?

[Nebula]

Homeowner that's what I thought. I thought that when people left house prices and rents would go down but that doesn't seem the case. In the case of rents, they have not come down. Given there is 12% unemployment here and the wages paid (average working wage about 12/hr) people can't afford to pay what landlords are asking and yes they are moving out. The vacancy rate here is 3% the highest it has been in 25 years. Affordable housing would not solve all Kelowna's problems but would be a step in the right direction. One thing for sure not as many kids would be going to bed hungry everynight. That's the part that really bothers me. I don't care about myself.

In case anyone is wondering why I have been posting on testing Tuesday I'm still fighting infection, lucky me. Oh well. I hope everyone is well.

As we have been discussing in another thread, but completely applicable to this one, it seems the average wage in B.C. is more like $21.00 per hour.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labr69k-eng.htm

[mtnman1]

One thing for sure not as many kids would be going to bed hungry everynight. That's the part that really bothers me.

Kids go without, because their parents make bad choices.

[onestep15]

Mtnman. You're right. They made the bad choice of staying in kelowna. Give me a break. If you want something to do go volunteer at the foodbank. A few weeks of that otta change your mind.

Nebula, we're not talking about B.C., we're talking about Kelowna. Wages are higher at the coast, in fact just about everywhere else. Even at 21/hr, (2200/mo clear) a single parent would not be able to rent a 3 bedroom place , pay utilities, here and feed her kids.

[mtnman1]

See what you have started? Even $2200/mth is not good enough. As for me, giving my time away for free? Ya right, not in this lifetime or the next 3.

[Nebula]

Mtnman. You're right. They made the bad choice of staying in kelowna. Give me a break. If you want something to do go volunteer at the foodbank. A few weeks of that otta change your mind.

Nebula, we're not talking about B.C., we're talking about Kelowna. Wages are higher at the coast, in fact just about everywhere else. Even at 21/hr, (2200/mo clear) a single parent would not be able to rent a 3 bedroom place , pay utilities, here and feed her kids.

I'm not sure how you arrive at $2,220 per month clear.

A person working 40 hours per week at $21 per hour makes $840 per week or about $3,639 per month. Federal and provincial taxes on that amount come to $717, leaving $2,922. Subtract about $165 for CPP and about $60 for EI, and you have about $2,697 clear, or about $500 per month more than you state.

The old standby is rent/mortgage should be no more than 40% of a person's pay. Even looking at the above example's take home pay of $2697, 40% is almost $1,100 per month towards accomodation.

[Glacier]

You are forgetting Booze. Perhaps with onstep's example, he assumes a person spends so much on booze he is paying $500 a month in booze taxes, and thus considers it similar to Federal/Provincial tax deductions?

[steven lloyd]

As we have been discussing in another thread, but completely applicable to this one, it seems the average wage in B.C. is more like $21.00 per hour.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labr69k-eng.htm

Also discussed elsewhere and applicable here:

Statistics can be very misleading and the term “average” (ie. arithmetic mean) and “most” quite often have very different meanings. I know the Fraser Institute has in the past proudly proclaimed that their studies have shown “average” wages to be increasing, when at that time “most” people’s wages were decreasing, or at best, remaining stagnant (while costs continued to rise).

As a simple example: Let’s say we have ten people. Four of them make $20,000 a year, three of them make $35,000, two make $150,000 a year, and one makes $2,000,000 a year. We can easily see that “most” (seven out of ten in fact) make considerably less than $50,000 a year, while three make considerably more. The total is $2,485,000, and divided by ten is an “average” wage of $248,500.

So, while most people in this example are earning far less than $50,000 a year, the average wage is $248,500.

While a simple example, it quite fairly reflects the effect of the income gap and how misleading the term “average” (arithmetic mean) is when describing wages. That is why it is used. A “modal” average, that is, the most often occurring variable, would be a much more fair and accurate representation of what the majority people are earning. That is why it is not used.

EDIT TO ADD: In the real world, the income gap (the difference between what “most” people earn and what a very few elite rake in) is far more drastic. Obscenely so, in fact.

[Homeownertoo]

The old standby is rent/mortgage should be no more than 40% of a person's pay. Even looking at the above example's take home pay of $2697, 40% is almost $1,100 per month towards accomodation.

Not sure where you get your old standby of 40%. It's actually 30% for housing. Some institutions push it to 35% but that's not leaving any room for rising taxes and interest rates. This reduces amount available for rent at under $1,000 a month. Better find a second income (wife, husband, friend, roommate).

[Nebula]

All right. If it's supposed to be 30%, so be it. (I have to wonder how many people, well off or not, that spend 30% or less of their income on housing). Now that I've been corrected, is that 30% of take home pay or gross pay?

[mtnman1]

NET pay.

[Nebula]

I just did some checking and, according to CMHC, it is based on gross income:

The first rule is that your monthly housing costs should not exceed 32% of your gross monthly household income.

In my above example, the gross monthly income was $3,639 x .32 = $1,164. (However, I believe that includes all housing costs, including rent, insurance, electricity, gas, etc.)

[mtnman1]

AND current and available credit. This is where a high limit credit card will hurt you, wheather it has a 0 balance or not.

[Captain Awesome]

Wait, somebody can't live on $21/hour? Seriously?

[kgcayenne]

The following is copied and pasted straight from the CRA online Payroll Deductions Calculator:

Employee's name
Employer's name
Pay period Monthly (12 pay periods a year)
Pay period ending date
Province of employment British Columbia
Federal amount from TD1 Claim Code 8 (22,207.01 - 24,179.00) (One child, add $2,000 per child under 18 and less federal tax is deducted)
Provincial amount from TD1 Claim Code 5 (15,700.01 - 17,809.00) (One child no such concessions as Fed. tax)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salary or wages for the pay period 3,639.00
Total EI insurable earnings for the pay period 3,639.00
Taxable income 3,639.00
Cash income for the pay period 3,639.00
Federal tax deductions 223.28
Provincial tax deductions 119.50
Requested additional tax deduction 0.00
Total tax on income 342.78
CPP deductions 165.69
EI deductions 62.95
Amounts deducted at source 0.00
Total deductions on income 571.42
Net amount 3,067.58

FWIW, $3,067.58 is do-able. Banks like to see a DSR of 42%, so that would be around $1530 for housing, utilities, and debt payments.

Staying out of debt is critical. Stuff is NOT worth it.

[onestep15]

First of all I'm basing my calculations on 140/hr per month ie IH hours as are lots of others. Secondly you may make 2400/mo clear maybe and KC rents for a 3 bedroom place here starts at around 1300/mo ( for a dive and is more than lots of mortgages ) plus utilities which are around 250/mo add to that child care ( no help there until maybe the end of the year ) , food for a family of 4 depending on age to eat healthy 600/mo or more ( I have teenagers ). That alone comes to 2150/mo without child care or extras or debt payment, if they don't have benefits add medical, dental meds etc. get it?

CAptain you are in a good position because you have dual income, no kids ( forgive me if I'm wrong ) so a 1 or 2 bedroom place will suite you. The minute you kids and worse yet are a single which 1 of 2 are things get a whole lot tougher. If you need a 3 bedroom place, simply move.

I love bean counters, I really do. They sit there all the time and try and rationalize how easy it is to live for even 21/hr let alone what IS the average working wage here at about 12 or 13. I guess though you have to live it to understand. I have. Many people I know have, and have had enough so they have left the Brokenagan. Folks all I have ever tried to do is get people to understand that given the cost of living here, affordable housing ( and I have given some ideas as to how it could be done )would benefit all but then I guess I haven't developed the Kelowna attitude yet. Thank God.

Mtnman I was only being sarcastic when I suggested that heaven forbid you do something like help someone but one thing for sure you are the perfect example of the Kelowna attitude.