Religious hypocrisy

[Big ned]

Well if we are going to get definitions of faith from the bible.

Heb. 11: 1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Pat is right, there is evidence... just like those of us who don't understand or have never seen molecular particals... do they exist? Some may argue that "some people have seen them", but we haven't.

Some people have seen God as well..

Many of the spiritual and religious have had evidence of God made manifest to them. An atheist can have their belief that He doesn't exist, but those who have received the "evidence of things not seen" know differently.

Ned, dilligent research can prove the existence of molecular particales.
We'er still awaiting the proof from those who swear they've witnessed god.
So I don't see any validity to your comparison of the two.

the validity is in the definition of faith. You can't physically observe things like molecular particals or even electricity, but you do see evidence in it being there (such as your appliances running). Have you seen a molecule? Then you are simply taking someones word for it.... that is faith.

Despite CK trying to paint all religious people with the same brush, I do have a BSc and a doctorate in a science related field. I have not seen a molecule for myself, but the research I have done gives me enough faith to know it exists. I personally have not seen God, but I have had enough experiences to know that He is there. I don't expect CK to debate me on the point... I frankly don't care what he and others believe, but I also don't expect a grown man to mock other peoples beliefs that he has no experience with (as he just admitted in a previous paragraph).

[zzontar]

dave wrote:

I counter your argument, zzontar, by reiterating my belief that one need not be religious in order to be spiritual.

Maybe if you repeat it 100 times it will be absorbed. On the other thread zzontar is repeating the same accusations for months now despite me explaining in large and capital letters, blue, red and any other way possible.

It is impossible to have a rational debate if someone is caught up in the netherworld with demons, angels, ghosts fighting....

I think there is going to be a war within a war, once a good chunk of the population is wiped out here there will be millions of souls instantly exposed to a greater war, the war of good and evil, angels and demons, God and Satan... for evil to get the upper hand they must first weaken the soul while it is still in the body. To do this they must take away things such as faith and hope, which are powerful forces although not concrete... much akin to love... people will kill for love, or die for it, whether it be to protect a child or to die for their country... without it, these scenarios would turn out quite differently.

How can one debate with a person that is so much removed from reality? Up to about 10 years of age I believed in the same things and I bet most children do likewise. In 99 out of 100 children that goes away (it is called growing up) and is replaced with the real world. Only a small minority, like zzontar or bigned etc. refuse to do so and stay at that level their entire life. Nobody can have an intellectual debate with emotionally 10 year old adults.

zzontar, you can criticise atheism (although you have never read any literature about it) all you want. Contrary to you and religion, my emotional well being does not depend on your opinion of atheism.
To the contrary, I welcome constructive criticism. Makes me look up things and learn more. That would be good advice for you too.

All we have read from you is how religion fills your petty little selfish needs. I have not read a single sentence from you that shows concern for the common good. In your opinion it's all about you and I.
You believed that the FSM was my invention, (obviously you never heard of it before) and you had no idea that one can be spiritual without being religious. I'd say get out of the apartment, stroll to the library and read, read, read! You are frightingly disconnected from real life!

I thought spirituality was more or less like the first definition I looked up:

spir·i·tu·al  (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

Seemed to lean towars religion to me. Then you got into semantics with your definition of naturalistic spirituality... then I posted:

I now also have to agree that being spiritual doesn't mean you have to be religious, because that was brought up in the definition of naturalistic spirituality, it's hard to argue that when the proof is there...

So what's the problem?

All we have read from you is how religion fills your petty little selfish needs.

That's ALL you ever read from me? Start posting quotes... should be easy as that's ALL I post about.

[Boda]

[quote="Big ned"][quote="Boda"][quote="Big ned"]Well if we are going to get definitions of faith from the bible.

Heb. 11: 1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Pat is right, there is evidence... just like those of us who don't understand or have never seen molecular particals... do they exist? Some may argue that "some people have seen them", but we haven't.

Some people have seen God as well..

Many of the spiritual and religious have had evidence of God made manifest to them. An atheist can have their belief that He doesn't exist, but those who have received the "evidence of things not seen" know differently.[/quote]






Ned, dilligent research can prove the existence of molecular particales.
We'er still awaiting the proof from those who swear they've witnessed god.
So I don't see any validity to your comparison of the two.[/quote]

the validity is in the definition of faith. You can't physically observe things like molecular particals or even electricity, but you do see evidence in it being there (such as your appliances running). Have you seen a molecule? Then you are simply taking someones word for it.... that is faith.

Despite CK trying to paint all religious people with the same brush, I do have a BSc and a doctorate in a science related field. I have not seen a molecule for myself, but the research I have done gives me enough faith to know it exists. I personally have not seen God, but I have had enough experiences to know that He is there. I don't expect CK to debate me on the point... I frankly don't care what he and others believe, but I also don't expect a grown man to mock other peoples beliefs that he has no experience with (as he just admitted in a previous paragraph).[/quote]








I'm not getting on the merry-go-round with you guys.
I will agree that I read a tone of disrepect in some of CK's posts as I do from some of the religious folk.
It's an emotional topic & tough to debate rationally.

Last comment;
Ta my way of reading, Ck usually gets the emotional responses when the religious can't answer rationally.

[Nebula]

zzontar, I believe the way definitions work in a dictionary is 1. OR 2. OR 3..., not 1. AND 2. AND 3...

In other words, spirtuality can be any of those definitions but does not have to be all five.

[cerealkiller]

Quote:
All we have read from you is how religion fills your petty little selfish needs.


zzontar wrote:

That's ALL you ever read from me? Start posting quotes... should be easy as that's ALL I post about.

I am not going through 100s of posts from you to prove my point. Only from the last handful of your posts:

CK, you're spiritual? Ummmmmmmm... call me crazy, but I'd say you're the complete opposite. (from spiritual)

Faith can keep someone going, keep them alive, give them strength, you never hear of these things happening because someone had no faith.

You don't hear someone say "the only thing that kept me going and gave me strength was the fact I have no faith"

…but faith, like hope, can give that extra boost. You can have two people struggling to survive, one has hope, one has no hope... the one with no hope COULD survive, but the one with with hope will have a greater chance.

It's all about you and I. How religion gives a 'boost, strenght, hope, survival' (all your words). These are all purely selfish emotions!
Whatever helps YOU, is not necessarily good for all. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

bigned, let's debate gravity, OK? You can't see it but we know it's there. We can't see electricity but we know it's there. Drop a rock on your foot or stick your finger in a socket and you will be a believer!
Personal experiences with god, reality for so many, schizophrenic halucinations for some, have nothing to do with verifiable proof. If your theory would work that there is proof of god because of personal experiences, than I can prove that god does not exist because I never had a personal experience and so did billions of other people.

I have no experience with your religion and no desire to get any. I state facts, if that is mocking, so be it.If you think that your faith is beyond debate, you have another thing coming.
Facts:
Your religion requires you to wear magic undies and you are not allowed to drink tea or coffee. You have to have a year's worth of food at home, pay 10% of your income to a multi billion business, believe that an angel with wings dropped off golden plates in the US for a farm boy to decipher.
You think that you can eventually become god yourself, your religion thinks that women are second class and that American Indians are the descendants of the Jews.

Just a little taste of your belief system. If there is anything untrue, please correct me. If it is true, it can't be mocking.

[pat1167]

Gee ck, I have Jewish DNA, maybe that explains my PhD. (I am not serious). This is quite laughable, except that it is included in some other materials.

Sure, there is "evidence" but it is all personal & therefore subjective. There is no objective evidence that can be quantified, or measured that I have run across and I am very good at research. Are there miracles? There are certainly unusual happenings, but verification is very difficult if not impossible.

I believe in God because I make a conscious choice to do so; but, do not believe in the stuff quoted by ck above and have a very generous coffee budget. As for 1/2 the population being 2nd class citizens (no comment, could get ugly). I do not pretend that it can be proven to anyone and I think that evangelization is an invasion of others privacy in many cases and very aggressive in others. The polite ladies on the street are fine.

CK is right that my faith suits me and is therefore by its nature selfish. Do I help others, most definitely, but many others in my same "group" do not choose to do so. It's always a personal choice to show up even if the charity event/fund-raising is organized and encouraged by the church.

Because things are invisible or because you personally have not seen them does not mean that it takes faith to know that they are true. I know there are pyramids in Egypt; other people have been there, brought back evidence, pics, artifacts, etc. Lots of things are invisible, the wind, electricity(already mentioned), radioactivity, most viruses, love, hate, and so on but their effects are evident and can be measured.

Here are my 2 cents.

[Big ned]

In 99 out of 100 children that goes away (it is called growing up) and is replaced with the real world. Only a small minority, like zzontar or bigned etc. refuse to do so and stay at that level their entire life. Nobody can have an intellectual debate with emotionally 10 year old adults.


Do you have anything to back up you facts?.... No. That would mean only of the world is part of an organized religion. I know cereal you have your supporters on this board, but if YOU were to step out into reality, the organized religion people are by far the majority.

The last two sentences are simply name calling as we have come to expect from CK when he feels he isn't converting the masses to atheism.

Care to repeat the claim about "I only state facts"

[cerealkiller]

Here are my last two sentences of 'name calling' from my last post:

You think that you can eventually become god yourself, your religion thinks that women are second class and that American Indians are the descendants of the Jews.

Just a little taste of your belief system. If there is anything untrue, please correct me. If it is true, it can't be mocking.

Anything in there that is not fact? Where are the names I called you?

Do you have anything to back up you facts?.... No. That would mean only of the world is part of an organized religion. I know cereal you have your supporters on this board, but if YOU were to step out into reality, the organized religion people are by far the majority.

Sure, 12 million people (according to your church) believe in an angel flying from the heavens, leaving golden plates with a farm boy and con artist in America, adding seer stones to translate from "reformed egyptian" into english; plates gone, church is rich and you are being fleeced. 12 million out of 6.5 billion, let's do the math here: that would be 1 in 541 people on the planet or 0.2% that believe this great tale!
At least the three main religions are somewhat more reasonable with their claims.
You have not answered the question: which part of my statement about the mormon religion is untrue?

pat1167, your believe in god is totally different from the few fundamentalists on this board. You are open minded and therefore see both sides. I do appreciate your honesty as well!

[zzontar]

zzontar, I believe the way definitions work in a dictionary is 1. OR 2. OR 3..., not 1. AND 2. AND 3...

In other words, spirtuality can be any of those definitions but does not have to be all five.

I realize that, but since a spirit is usually synonymous with ghost or soul, and the first one mentioned spirit, the second, soul, the third God, the fourth religion, and the fifth spirits and the supernatural, none of these seemed to have anything to do with ck IMO.

[zzontar]

cerealkiller wrote:

All we have read from you is how religion fills your petty little selfish needs.

I am not going through 100s of posts from you to prove my point. Only from the last handful of your posts:

That's all you could come up with? Because I think faith and hope might make someone stronger that means I'm filling my petty selfish needs? Why would you have to go through100's of threads to find anything better than that when that's ALL you ever read from me?

cerealkileer wrote:

I have not read a single sentence from you that shows concern for the common good.

Actually, I've posted my concerns about crime, overpopulation, pollution, the environment, moral concerns, the plight of the homeless, affordable housing, moral support for those with personal strife, and many more on other threads... you post ONLY about your hate for religion.

And I have no concern for the common good? Good one.

[zzontar]

cerealkiller wrote:

It is impossible to have a rational debate if someone is caught up in the netherworld with demons, angels, ghosts fighting....

Wow, what was I thinking, talking about angels and demons on a thread about religion... man, you crack me up sometimes.

[Big ned]

Cereal.... this is about you, quit deflecting. You said just a few posts ago, "I don't mock, I only tell the truth" Then you post the most ridiculous and unsubstantiated garbage I have ever seen. Let me refresh your mind again.

99 out of 100 children that goes away (it is called growing up) and is replaced with the real world. Only a small minority, like zzontar or bigned etc. refuse to do so and stay at that level their entire life. Nobody can have an intellectual debate with emotionally 10 year old adults.

I know what I believe, you obvious don't.

Now again, if those statistics you quoted above are true, then 1% of the population would follow organized religion. They are patently false and you just proved yourself to be a liar. Get out of your mother's basement and realize that the world is not the castanet religion board.

If you enjoy ruining your credibility, continue.... I don't have time to have a debate or even a discussion with someone who will lie at the drop of a hat to support his position. You may not need religion to make you a good person (as you are always extolling), but some where along the line someone forgot to teach you that lying is not a good character trait.

Now instead of cherry picking, will you please stop "cherry picking" and answer the claims against you, or are you going to go and find some obscure quote by someone 150 years ago to post that is not part of my doctrine to try and take the spotlight off your obvious untruths?

[cerealkiller]

Whatever it takes to deflect and weasel out.

All right, 99.98% of all inhabitants of this planet do not believe in Moroni and seer stones. Got that?
Mainstream organized religions are at least somewhat more credible with their stories, but the mormon doctrin is too far out to even consider it. At least not for 99.98% of people. I included zzontar in my previous statement also because he has a war going on in his/her head between good and demons. The complete scenario has been depicted by zzontar: we are doomed!
Can I be a little more positive and not eagerly await armageddon and judgement day? Can we as a species become enlightened enough to stop this madness of religious strife in time to survive? I believe so, when the religious fundamentalists die out a new era will begin. An era of cooperation and civility. No wars over 30 acres of land, no Jews, Arabs, Caucasians, religious, atheists, only people! Our generation won't see it I guess, but our children or grandchildren will. The trend is clear: organized religion is on it's way out. The same as Zeus, Apollo and thousands of other gods in the past.

Again, no answer to my question:
WHAT IF ANYTHING IN THE STATEMENT I MADE ABOUT THE MORMON DOCTRIN IS UNTRUE??

Calling me a liar is cute but does not get rid of the question...

Your religion requires you to wear magic undies and you are not allowed to drink tea or coffee. You have to have a year's worth of food at home, pay 10% of your income to a multi billion business, believe that an angel with wings dropped off golden plates in the US for a farm boy to decipher. You think that you can eventually become god yourself, your religion thinks that women are second class and that American Indians are the descendants of the Jews.

boda wrote: Last comment;

Ta my way of reading, Ck usually gets the emotional responses when the religious can't answer rationally.

Exactly!

[Big ned]

CK I have gone round and round with you on the doctrine of my church (by the way, doctrine has an e on the end).

I'm not going there anymore. go back and read the responses I've posted earlier, they haven't changed. What has changed is that you claim to speak nothing but the truth and I just pointed out that you have lied twice in one paragraph.

Care to address that now or are you going to continue to deflect?

I thought so.

[Boda]

[quote="Big ned"]CK I have gone round and round with you on the doctrine of my church (by the way, doctrine has an e on the end).

I'm not going there anymore. go back and read the responses I've posted earlier, they haven't changed. What has changed is that you claim to speak nothing but the truth and I just pointed out that you have lied twice in one paragraph.

Care to address that now or are you going to continue to deflect?

I thought so.[/quote]







Ned, with all due respect will you please be clear as to which paragraph you feel Ck lied twice? Also which statements were lies?

Maybe it should already be clear to me but I don't always comprehend 100% of whats written. So apoligies if I'm asking a dumb question.