Religious hypocrisy

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?

Postby cerealkiller » Jan 19th, 2008, 12:16 pm

don't fret it boda, many here can't follow bigned and zzontar's thinking pattern.

So it seems there will be no answer to my question :200: again...

"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science."
C. Darwin
I don't try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it.
A.Einstein
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 19th, 2008, 6:22 pm

cerealkiller wrote:...when the religious fundamentalists die out a new era will begin. An era of cooperation and civility. No wars over 30 acres of land, no Jews, Arabs, Caucasians, religious, atheists, only people! Our generation won't see it I guess, but our children or grandchildren will. The trend is clear: organized religion is on it's way out. The same as Zeus, Apollo and thousands of other gods in the past.


Although there may be some difficulties with some religions, this is definitely not a possibility. People wage wars over land, jobs, assets and between tribes even if they have been of the same religion. To think that abolishing religion will make us "one happy family" is not reasonable. WWII was not caused by religious differences at all.
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Postby zzontar » Jan 19th, 2008, 7:17 pm

pat1167 wrote:
cerealkiller wrote:...when the religious fundamentalists die out a new era will begin. An era of cooperation and civility. No wars over 30 acres of land, no Jews, Arabs, Caucasians, religious, atheists, only people! Our generation won't see it I guess, but our children or grandchildren will. The trend is clear: organized religion is on it's way out. The same as Zeus, Apollo and thousands of other gods in the past.


Although there may be some difficulties with some religions, this is definitely not a possibility. People wage wars over land, jobs, assets and between tribes even if they have been of the same religion. To think that abolishing religion will make us "one happy family" is not reasonable. WWII was not caused by religious differences at all.


I agree, instead of using religion, people would war in the name of their country, the queen, or anything else that would make it more popular... to think if there was no religion there'd be no wars seems very far fetched.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 19th, 2008, 9:26 pm

zzontar wrote:
pat1167 wrote:
cerealkiller wrote:...when the religious fundamentalists die out a new era will begin. An era of cooperation and civility. No wars over 30 acres of land, no Jews, Arabs, Caucasians, religious, atheists, only people! Our generation won't see it I guess, but our children or grandchildren will. The trend is clear: organized religion is on it's way out. The same as Zeus, Apollo and thousands of other gods in the past.


Although there may be some difficulties with some religions, this is definitely not a possibility. People wage wars over land, jobs, assets and between tribes even if they have been of the same religion. To think that abolishing religion will make us "one happy family" is not reasonable. WWII was not caused by religious differences at all.


I agree, instead of using religion, people would war in the name of their country, the queen, or anything else that would make it more popular... to think if there was no religion there'd be no wars seems very far fetched.


Yes, as far fetched as saying there were no wars created over religious principals, or persecution.
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Postby zzontar » Jan 19th, 2008, 9:37 pm

I think the point was that if there was no religion, another excuse would take it's place to start a war... I can't think of any wars where the invader just wanted to convert the attackees without taking land or some other ulterior motive.
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:18 pm

AlanH wrote:[
Yes, as far fetched as saying there were no wars created over religious principals, or persecution.


To expand on what zzontar said already;

No one said that religion had not been used as an excuse for wars or that religious persecution was not rampant in some past centuries, especially when kings had absolute powers and/or were subject to certain religious leaders; even then, expansion and power seemed to be more the motive. That situation has been substantially reduced by Henry VIII and Napoleon and most modern conflicts are fought for other reasons. For example, both Israel and the Moslems are fighting over the Gaza strip which is needed for their people to build live.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:21 pm

zzontar wrote:I think the point was that if there was no religion, another excuse would take it's place to start a war... I can't think of any wars where the invader just wanted to convert the attackees without taking land or some other ulterior motive.


I certainly hope you are kidding...

**Cough** Crusades...


**ADD** Now that I think about it let's throw in the French wars of Religion, and the Reconquista.. then you at least have three things to read about tonight.


And please save me the "Without taking land" *bleep*, the U.S.A. is in Iraq right now, and "Not taking land" Such a concept is a complete waste of thought, and impossible. Example: Hey! I want to convert you... Sorry, you cannot cross this line.
Last edited by AlanH on Jan 19th, 2008, 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:34 pm

pat1167 wrote:
AlanH wrote:[
Yes, as far fetched as saying there were no wars created over religious principals, or persecution.


To expand on what zzontar said already;

No one said that religion had not been used as an excuse for wars or that religious persecution was not rampant in some past centuries, especially when kings had absolute powers and/or were subject to certain religious leaders; even then, expansion and power seemed to be more the motive. That situation has been substantially reduced by Henry VIII and Napoleon and most modern conflicts are fought for other reasons. For example, both Israel and the Moslems are fighting over the Gaza strip which is needed for their people to build live.


It is not my problem if you don't wish to consult history books. You give as an example, a modern day religious conflict... What can I say other than... uhh... read? Sigh...
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:42 pm

I did refer to history and very much acknowledged the problems of past centuries -- see above. To use your own words, read?

Does controlling the oil count?
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Postby AlanH » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:47 pm

pat1167 wrote:I did refer to history and very much acknowledged the problems of past centuries -- see above. To use your own words, read?


No, you referred to fighting over the Gaza strip, being a conflict over where people live, and prefacing it with "modern conflicts are fought for other reasons."

Did you think that would be missed, or did you make an error in your statement, either way, my previous comments stand as I stated them.
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Postby zzontar » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:51 pm

I always thought the crusades were about obtaining more power by hiding behind religion... In the bible it says to spread the word, not force it, the crusades had forced conversions due to people bending the rules in their favor... if there was no religion back then I'm sure they'd have thought of another reason to fight... what better reason could there be to fight than God told you to? George Bush uses the same excuse today for his ulterior motives.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:57 pm

zzontar wrote:I always thought the crusades were about obtaining more power by hiding behind religion... In the bible it says to spread the word, not force it, the crusades had forced conversions due to people bending the rules in their favor... if there was no religion back then I'm sure they'd have thought of another reason to fight... what better reason could there be to fight than God told you to? George Bush uses the same excuse today for his ulterior motives.



Uhhh... yeah.. ok.
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 19th, 2008, 10:59 pm

AlanH wrote:
pat1167 wrote:
AlanH wrote:[
Yes, as far fetched as saying there were no wars created over religious principals, or persecution.


To expand on what zzontar said already;

No one said that religion had not been used as an excuse for wars or that religious persecution was not rampant in some past centuries, especially when kings had absolute powers and/or were subject to certain religious leaders; even then, expansion and power seemed to be more the motive. That situation has been substantially reduced by Henry VIII and Napoleon and most modern conflicts are fought for other reasons. For example, both Israel and the Moslems are fighting over the Gaza strip which is needed for their people to build live.


It is not my problem if you don't wish to consult history books. You give as an example, a modern day religious conflict... What can I say other than... uhh... read? Sigh...


The Catholic Church had its power stripped considerably starting with the above situations until its land was reduced to the current few sq. miles. There are no longer kings/queens with extreme powers or Church leaders who rule over them. That has been resolved by history. The modern situation is much different. I am very familiar with many areas of history especially religious theory & history as it is an interest of mine. I do hope you can make your points without being rude and I will try to do the same.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 19th, 2008, 11:09 pm

pat1167 wrote:
AlanH wrote:
pat1167 wrote:
AlanH wrote:[
Yes, as far fetched as saying there were no wars created over religious principals, or persecution.


To expand on what zzontar said already;

No one said that religion had not been used as an excuse for wars or that religious persecution was not rampant in some past centuries, especially when kings had absolute powers and/or were subject to certain religious leaders; even then, expansion and power seemed to be more the motive. That situation has been substantially reduced by Henry VIII and Napoleon and most modern conflicts are fought for other reasons. For example, both Israel and the Moslems are fighting over the Gaza strip which is needed for their people to build live.


It is not my problem if you don't wish to consult history books. You give as an example, a modern day religious conflict... What can I say other than... uhh... read? Sigh...


The Catholic Church had its power stripped considerably starting with the above situations until its land was reduced to the current few sq. miles. There are no longer kings/queens with extreme powers or Church leaders who rule over them. That has been resolved by history. The modern situation is much different. I am very familiar with many areas of history especially religious theory & history as it is an interest of mine. I do hope you can make your points without being rude and I will try to do the same.


As I stated 4 posts above this one.... And sorry if text sounds rude. It is simply not my intention.
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 19th, 2008, 11:41 pm

Then I apologize for missing the point, please expand.

To summarize my point, there have been many religious conflicts/wars in the 16th to 18th centuries; many were horrendous and other atrocities (not wars) including the witchcraft persecutions in the 1700's in the U.S. The mechanism for these wars is gone (powerful kings/with Pope's over them).

There are still a lot of persecutions in some areas of the world; such as the protestant/catholics in Ireland. They are on a lesser scale, which does not make them right, just smaller.

The U.S./Iran thing is not a religious war, it involves the control of the oil/resources in the middle east despite their president's rhetoric. One side is American which holds many religions including Islamic and the other side is Arab which is substantially Islamic. It is not between two religions, maybe two cultures.
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