Religious hypocrisy

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?

Postby zzontar » Jan 20th, 2008, 12:03 am

When I was in school, my four best friends and myself all lived on the same block, I was raised a protestant, the next guy was an atheist, then a muslim, a jew, and a Roman Catholic... I know it sounds like the beginning of a joke so here goes one...

We were all fishing in a boat not too far from shore... as we were hungry and our food was on land, the atheist suggested we row to shore... I said that wasn't necessary... I stepped out of the boat and walked across the water onto the shore, then my Roman Catholic friend also walked across the the water to shore... my atheist friend thought he'd give it a try but when he took his first step he ended up neck deep in the water... I turned to my buddy and said "Think we shoulda told him where the rocks are?"

But seriously folks, we all hung around together for many years, and not once did we have a conflict over our beliefs. We all held true to our own, and respected the others'... the thought never crossed our minds to try to convert the other... there was no need, it was a harmonious balance.

I always thought that if it worked on a small scale, why couldn't it work on a large one? Maybe it's human nature... there will always be the kid that wants to take the other kids' toys, the high school student that wants to rumble with the other high school, the sports fanatic that hates anyone cheering for the opposing team, extremists... these people are not happy unless everyone sees it their way... they can use their school or sports as an excuse for their hatred, but it's themselves that have the problem... a true sportsman wouldn't hate someone cheering for the other team, someone with true school spirit wouldn't want to fight the other schools, I don't think the truely religious would want to attack another country because they have a different religion... I've never met and probably will never meet a religious person who thinks we should start attacking other countries and converting them, if they're out there, they're most likely extremists.
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 20th, 2008, 12:12 pm

zzontar wrote:I've never met and probably will never meet a religious person who thinks we should start attacking other countries and converting them, if they're out there, they're most likely extremists.


They are most definitely out there. They ask "are you saved?" on street corners and in little pamplets, like suddenly, a person is going to say, "oh, my, no I'm not, must look after that?". They call themselves missionaries. And trust me, they are on a mission. I had one room with me once when he was in missionary school (thought he would make a good tenant). He was relentless with the questions and really irritated my sons who were all at home then. It was such a fear based motivation that he was selling. We were all supposed to be afraid of hell and willing to "be saved" their way and join their little group and go to church 3 times a week, and cut ourselves off from the "worldly" to guarantee our place in heaven.

Quite frankly, I am trying to make it through this world while attempting my best to help others and make it a better place and become a better person. The next world is of little concern to me at this time, and fear as my one son says is "for loosers". Not sure, I go that far on everything, but on fear of the imaginary, I agree with him.
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Postby zzontar » Jan 20th, 2008, 12:25 pm

I think there's a big difference between asking "are you saved?" at a street corner and sending in armies to attack and force people to convert.
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Postby Nebula » Jan 20th, 2008, 12:27 pm

Pat, I've wondered about that before. (People knocking on your door and suddenly you see the light.)

The thing is, they keep coming. And different people. So, to me, someone out there is listening to them.
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 20th, 2008, 12:59 pm

zzontar wrote:I think there's a big difference between asking "are you saved?" at a street corner and sending in armies to attack and force people to convert.


Is there? Both think they have all the answers and their way is the only one. Only the scale is differant. Other people (outside their group) are bad or evil or worldly and to be despised. It is this irrational view that causes wars both on a large and small scale.

The Sunni-Shiite war for instance, started small with the Sunni's paying up to $10,000 to each Shiite that converted and it grew to a nation wide conflict. More of a civil war.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 20th, 2008, 4:04 pm

Ethnic cleansing is a nice way to avoid using the term, religious eradication, which would sure sound bad, after something like WW2's atrocities. Call a war what you will, but many times in the past, and currently many of the actions were against a particular ethnic counterpart.

It's not usually about converting, but full scale eradication. There is no "Getting along" or "Living together" for some religions.
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Postby pat1167 » Jan 21st, 2008, 8:26 pm

AlanH wrote: It's not usually about converting, but full scale eradication. There is no "Getting along" or "Living together" for some religions.


This is true, however, it is limited:
There is no getting along between some nations: England & France;
There is no getting along for some children; bullies
There is no getting along for some racists; white supremacy
There is no getting along for some teams; soccer riots

People have a lot of conflicts due to personalities, cultures, aggressiveness, arrogance, etc. Religion can be or not be used for those ends, but is certainly not the only source of conflict between people.
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Postby AlanH » Jan 21st, 2008, 11:40 pm

pat1167 wrote:
AlanH wrote: It's not usually about converting, but full scale eradication. There is no "Getting along" or "Living together" for some religions.


This is true, however, it is limited:
There is no getting along between some nations: England & France;
There is no getting along for some children; bullies
There is no getting along for some racists; white supremacy
There is no getting along for some teams; soccer riots

People have a lot of conflicts due to personalities, cultures, aggressiveness, arrogance, etc. Religion can be or not be used for those ends, but is certainly not the only source of conflict between people.


No, good point. I thought that was obvious, but by not mentioning it, I guess others could miss the point, so thank you for adding those points.

It would be silly to blame all conflicts on simply Religious conflict, there are certainly other differences that have caused conflicts as well.

Bravo!
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Postby cerealkiller » Feb 1st, 2008, 11:00 am

Here is a perfect example how religious nutcases enforce discrimination:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 4620080201

The rules restrict women's legal rights in marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, property ownership and decision-making in the family, as well as choice of residency, education and jobs, the committee said.

A Saudi delegation led by Zeid Bin Abdul Mushin Al Hussein, vice president of the Saudi Human Rights Commission, told the committee during a recent debate: "Human rights in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia are based on Sharia law."

Can anybody tell us of any religion in history that defended individual rights and freedom?
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Postby cerealkiller » Feb 1st, 2008, 11:10 am

pat1167 wrote:
AlanH wrote: It's not usually about converting, but full scale eradication. There is no "Getting along" or "Living together" for some religions.


This is true, however, it is limited:
There is no getting along between some nations: England & France;
There is no getting along for some children; bullies
There is no getting along for some racists; white supremacy
There is no getting along for some teams; soccer riots

People have a lot of conflicts due to personalities, cultures, aggressiveness, arrogance, etc. Religion can be or not be used for those ends, but is certainly not the only source of conflict between people.


Sure! But none is caused by religious scriptures or dogmas. Individual miscreants will always be around; common law and free societies can deal with that. Theocracies cannot. They are bound by sciptures that cannot be flexible or changed to modern times (see previous post).
Religion is certainly not the only source for conflict in human history but equally certain is that it was/is a major source of conflict.
If we can outgrow the mysteriousness of superstition and concentrate on humanity in general instead of individual salvation and afterlife, we would instantly progress into a higher level of consciousness and peace. :124:
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Postby Mr Danksworth » Feb 1st, 2008, 5:18 pm

"With or without [religion] you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." Steven Wineberg.
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Postby ferri » Feb 1st, 2008, 5:47 pm

soulra wrote:"With or without [religion] you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." Steven Wineberg.


and that to me is a crock, because the religion of the person would be focus. if they don't have a religion their excuse is "mommy spanked me!"
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Postby pat1167 » Feb 1st, 2008, 11:28 pm

soulra wrote:"With or without [religion] you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." Steven Wineberg.


You are what you do . Thieves steal, Murderers kill, Liars lie; adulterers do just that; etc.

If you do evil things, you are not a good person whether you profess to belong to an organized religion or not. Good people are good also whether they belong to an organized religion or not.
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Postby bdbnkr » Feb 6th, 2008, 12:03 am

ferri wrote:
soulra wrote:"With or without [religion] you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." Steven Wineberg.


and that to me is a crock, because the religion of the person would be focus. if they don't have a religion their excuse is "mommy spanked me!"


I agree with ferri... that statement is total BS. Good people, religious and not, do evil things all of the time. That is part of being human. Being human is being imperfect. We all have a baser nature that we give in to from time to time. Whether it be a simple as gossiping or as horendous as murder all people give into their weaknesses. Some desire power. Some desire wealth. Some desire to be right all of the time. Occaisionally people use their religion as an excuse... but it is seldom the actual cause of the evil behavior.
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Postby dudlee » Feb 13th, 2008, 11:55 am

My experience with religion has proven to me ,wholeheartedly that faith is mine and religion is man made, and is also a multi billion dollar business.
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