What's More Important to Christians?

[Tumult]

It would seem my attempts to have dialogue with Christians began with the wrong approach. Christianity is apparently an open and ongoing discussion. I think strict adherance to a rigid viewpoint is detrimental to spreading enlightenment. I think it is important to spread what enlightenment we have (whether Christian based or other)in a fashion that does not alienate people. Christianity in my perspective is defined by its agreement that Jesus is the "access point" to connect with a source of enlightenment defined as a deity. Though I have waded into the "pool" of athiesm I never submerged myself. I have found my own path to a source of enlightenment (which I do not perceive as a deity) yet I am convinced my system of faith has many parallels with Christianity( I refer to it as faith because I cannot prove my source's effects through science, although I feel confident science cannot disprove it either). I have a profound sense that I should bring my enlightenment to as many people as possible and I am still discovering ways to do that. Language (which I only speak and write one of) is a problematic tool in disseminating enlightenment.

Here is an excercise I have devised:

Fill in the BLANK with one or two words only. i.e. the blanks must all contain the same word or two words (hypenated) eg. dog or dog-cat

I used to think and feel different, then I had a profound realization. I found faith in BLANK. BLANK has changed my life. BLANK is a powerful force in my life. BLANK effects many people whether they know it or not. I think many people's lives would benefit if they accepted BLANK. In my mind BLANK is an ultimate truth. Since I awakened to and accepted BLANK I have had many experiences that seem more than coincidental, as if BLANK is the reason these things have happened. I have gained great peace and a new perspective because of my understandings of BLANK. I can see my views on BLANK reflected in other people's beliefs though they may have a different name for it, or not see it the way I do. Many people cannot or will not find BLANK the way I have. Many people have mistaken ideas about BLANK. Language often confuses people's ideas and perceptions about BLANK. It is not always easy to keep BLANK in my heart and mind, but when I do it brings me great joy.


For me, I can fill the BLANK with what I term love-consciousness and every sentence rings true.

As an excercise to further communicate my faith perspective I have written a poem.
(It looks and probably reads better center aligned but I do not know how to do that on this forum)


Higher Learning
(Bits & pieces of understanding communicated in the 7-10% of words alone)

What is higher than the heavens?
The high Frequency of Love.
Love & Consciousness form the higher frequency
This frequency is the missing elements (dimensions) of
(quantum) science and religion.

The roots of today’s World views
stem from our viewing of the Earth
(the physical, material, natural world, elements (dimensions) & science)
and the heavens
(our galaxy perceived through the spiritual world of (love)consciousness & perspective).

The world(view) is both material (the earth)
and spiritual (consciousness & perspective)

Those who sought to control the whole world failed.

Those who sought to control the material world (the earth) failed
Their failure is the (material, physical, scientific) systems of today

While the discovery that we cannot defeat the earth
and still have any victory left to claim begins to emerge
the physical (material) war persists
and we claim the spoils of their war
against the earth.

Those who sought to control the spiritual world
(consciousness & perspective)
have also failed.
Their failure is the (religious, philosophical, ideological) systems of today

While the discovery that we cannot defeat consciousness & perspective
and still have any victory left to claim begins to emerge
this war persists as well.
They claim the spoils (our souls, our minds) of their war
against consciousness & perspective.

(Love) Peace & Harmony are the result of operating at a higher frequency
This is the goal of all forms of enlightenment,
to achieve a higher frequency
both personally and in an outward form of expression.

The wars against the earth and our conscious perspective (soul)
Have exacted a heavy toll
To find the Love, Peace & Harmony
We must become the (missing) higher frequency of love & consciousness
to achieve a complete world view
(marriage of material & spiritual worlds)

Peace
Tumult

edited for grammar mistake

[Piecemaker]

Thank you Tumult for sharing that. I can't help but think that the world would be a better place if there were no religion, but rather that a spirituality - such as Frequency of Love - was aspired to.

[Tumult]

I think most every religion has some tenant concerning love for everyone, if the adherants to religions can find and focus on this common ground then the world will undoubtedly be a better place. Just before I posted this I found some interesting bits in a book I am reading that (coincidently?) relate:

What is truth to me is not truth to another. The same arguments and evidences that convince one mind, make no impression on another....
No man is entitled positively to assert that he is right, where other men, equally intelligent and equally well informed, hold directly the opposite opinion. Each thinks it impossible for the other to be sincere; and each, as to that, is equally in error.

Here is a man, superior to myself in intellect and learning, and yet he sincerely believes what seems to me too absurd to merit confutation; and I cannot conceive, and sincerely do not believe, that he is both sane and honest; and yet, he is both. His reason is as perfect as mine, and he is as honest as I am.

When men entertain opinions diametrically opposed to each other, and each is honest, who shall decide which hath the truth, and how can either say with certainty that he hath it? We know not what is the truth.

[sobrohusfat]

None of us holds a complete perspective.

Humility is key, without it we've got our feet stuck in the concrete block of our own opinions (no matter how sophisticated they appear to be).

One moment in the privacy of our own hearts with genuine and sincere humility before God can reveal what years of seeking enlightened understanding fails to do ("The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth about God")

If that's true then maybe it's more than just sweet notions and fine universal principles...Yikes!

"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you..."
"You seek me, but You'll find me when you seek me with your whole heart"

[Big ned]

In the LDS faith, God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. All three are separate and distinct individuals and are all three God's.

We don't have to guess at the interpretation of the Bible... We have latter day revelation to guide us. Also, the Book of Mormon is a second testament of Jesus Christ and his earthly mininistry that when read side by side with the Bible also makes that gospel of Jesus Christ more clear.

[Nebula]

In the LDS faith, God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. All three are separate and distinct individuals and are all three God's.

We don't have to guess at the interpretation of the Bible... We have latter day revelation to guide us. Also, the Book of Mormon is a second testament of Jesus Christ and his earthly mininistry that when read side by side with the Bible also makes that gospel of Jesus Christ more clear.

So you're saying Jesus didn't get it quite right the first time so he had to take a second crack at it and clarify? Sounds like a modern day politician.

[sooperphreek]

i think that the most importaint thing to christians is the obsession that they are always right. there was a protracted war in the middle ages that cost lives needlessly for conquest and for this desire to show they were right because they were "christs emmisaries" (or so they believed).

unfortunately in many of these cerebral discussions i feel like many people have tape recorded what their pastors have said and pass the quips off as their own to be "right" in a discussion.

if we believe the bible is a blueprint for a quest to be without sin then how can we take literally what sinners wrote and said to be absolute truth? for instance paul the apostle. he sinned enormously by having an obsession with ministering in rome to the extent that he chose to be led there in shackles. thus limiting his effectiveness in being any impact to the people there when he arrived because he was in prison. if we all are able as believers to be impacted by the holy spirit then why did he reject out of hand what people led by the same spirit told him was foolishness? the contradiction becomes who was right? paul? or the people who told him he was crazy to go to rome in such a way? i guess to the victor goes the spoils. because pauls victory was he had nothing to do but write because he was locked away in prison and later the church leaders cannonized his writings into the "holy" bible. and the other person was forgotten to history as a blip in the bible.

i think that the real tragedy in the whole "what do we believe and what about whats out there" is that we dont know for sure. unfortunately the church leaders 400 years after christ died put politics before absolute truths and cannonized a set of works that became the bible. "god" didnt do this....human kind did.

i wonder how frustrating it must be for god to take human fiascos and make them work. the beloved david is a perfect example of this. he tarred everyone around him in political intrigue and family feuds because he always chose to have a blind eye to what was going on. god had to use this moron and make something out of his irresponsability. a son who was birthed from adultery and sin. OUCH! and to think christ was a direct desendant of this uglyness. i wonder what god has to say through this?

so what is it that " I " am saying? questioning things is something i "get". when people do it i know where they are comming from. and saxon......you may have heard your pastor say this from the pulpit a million times and it didnt even make a dent. (hit record on the tape next time) people dont care how much you think you know......they are only interested in how much you care. when you turn into a broken record and agree to disagree because you are only interested in being "right" as you see it. then god has to take another fiasco from book of "saxon" and make sense of it to people. maybe you should live by the addage K.I.S.S keep it simple stupid. try love and understanding and less scriptures and sermons. it will save a lot of typing and youll get more sleep.

[stepsonwater]

After reading through all the responses to Tumults forum topic "Whats more Important to Christians" I was quite intrigued by the number of responses and the scope of thinking and research from which people gave their opinions and/or beliefs. The last post in this forum, made by sooperphreek, closed with this statement...

"people dont care how much you think you know......they are only interested in how much you care.
when you turn into a broken record and agree to disagree because you are only interested in being
"right" as you see it. then god has to take another fiasco from book of "saxon" and make sense of it
to people. maybe you should live by the addage K.I.S.S keep it simple stupid. try love and
understanding and less scriptures and sermons. it will save a lot of typing and youll get more sleep."

I like the point that people are interested in how much you care...because after all, the entire bible is laced with scriptures that say that God looks at the heart, not at outward appearances, and that knowledge menas nothing without love.
However, I would also like to point out that discussion is a very positive way of stretching out minds and the way in which we learn and draw conclusions for ourselves. Even in our own minds we often discuss our thoughts or behaviors with ourselves. This was Tumults forum topic, and he/she asked many questions, therefor opening up the need for dialogue. So I remind sooperphreek that the purpose of this forum was for people to write in with their opinions and research for discusion.

The posts on the past 4 pages contained a lot of interesting thoughts and ideas... which I naturally either agree or dissagree with at this moment, based upon the lens through which I perceive things and the degree of learning I myself have yet achieved. I loved reading peoples perspectives...but a new question has come to my mind...one which Tumult somewhat touched on in the question made on page 3...

"Is it reasonable to suggest if you practice, teach and wholeheartedly accept his teaching of love
(without reference to him - maybe think of it as spreading the love he has instead of spreading
the love of him) and that since he and his teachings are inseparable would this not lead the
taught to him in their own fashion?"

The question is this....If Jesus really is who he claimed to be, or who people say he claimed to be (whichever way you choose to view it) and if he really is the Living, resserected Lord through which we must believe in order to have friendship with God...then should we not all try reaching past the level of man in our quest for truth and go straight to Jesus himself?

I am tired of people, including myself, relegating Jesus/God to the position of a topic which we can try and understand on our own human effort. If God is really there....if he really is Alive at this moment....and if he really did all the things that the bible and/or other writings say he did....then shouldn't we let him speak for himself???

My experience so far has taught me Two things which I believe with all of my heart...despite your acceptance or rejection of them.

1. The Jesus who performed miracles in the New Testament, who met Paul on the road to Damascus and changed him from a murderer of those who spoke their opinions; a person who was full of self-righteous pride and head knowledge to a man who knew God intimately....this Jesus is still as alive at this moment than ever before in history
How do I know he is alive? Because he healed me from what doctors think was probably acute appendicitis, and what my body screamed in pain over. I asked him too, 2 people I hardly knew also asked on my behalf and I was healed...fully and completely...dropping into a deep sleep and waking up with no symptoms.

I also know because he healed my 17 year old brother...who was shot down by a wind current from about 50 feet in the air into the water...snapping the tow rope behind a boat, and putting him into severe shock as my brothers and dad rushed him to the nearest hospital. I met him there, and saw with my own eyes the black and blue bruising over his entire left side and the way in which he could hardly breath. Xrays showed a ruptured lung, a severely enlarged heart that was surrounded by blood, and 2 cleanly broken ribs. They thought he was going into congestive heart failure and told us to say our goodbyes, just in case he didn't make the transport to a larger centre.
We prayed....and begged Jesus to reveal himself to us in this moment as the one the bible shows him to be...and my brother woke up the next morning in ICU to no broken ribs, a lung that had closed up its hole, and a completely normal heart. The next day, he drove to my home and showed me his once bruised left side...completely free of marks except for a small abrassion. Doctors said he should have died or at least had a 3-4 week recovery in ICU...claiming it as a miracle. And though you may dispute...I know what I witnessed...A Jesus who must be every bit God and who is VERY much alive.

And lastly, I know because for 8 weeks he chose not to heal me from sickness that left me bedridden, despite my many requests and the overwhelming hopelessness I felt. Yet he ministered to me, in intimate ways...giving me joy amidst non-stop sickness, deep rest every night and speaking things to me that I will never forget...things that changed my life and have brought me increasing freedom and Life.

2.The person who is really seeking God with their heart will find him...just as I have. Jesus taught love...and he is inseperable from his teachings, just as Tumult suggested . That is why he will NEVER force himself on you. But he will always love you...deeply and intensely...no matter what you do or the knowledge you possess.

If Jesus/God/Holy Spirit are not alive and active in our world, and can not make a difference in my life today...then everything I've ever read or heard about them is untrue.
If the only reason I believe in Jesus is so I can selfishly earn my way into heaven when I die...then I miss out on the only thing that really matters...friendship with God.
And I long for his friendship...more every day. My life is being lived this moment...and so is yours. Have you experienced intimacy with him? Do you long for it? Then ask him to reveal himself to you. Don't settle for another person...even a 'pastor'...telling you about him. Go straight to the source.
Religion never got me anywhere...and I'm hesitant to even call myself a christian anymore because of what it often represents....conformity to a system that places pastors on pedestals and makes a mockery of God by teaching us to pat ourselves on the backs when we succeed or whip ourselves with humiliation when we fail. I make many mistakes...and I've done many wrong things....but they have no bearing on who I am....a daughter of the Living God and his close friend.

Good luck to any readers on your journey...which must be an intensely personal one. For love based and quite non-religious, interesting dialogue on such topics as this forum discusses, check out the podcasts on www.thegodjourney.com and if you want to read a really interesting book on the concept of the trinity and on why God allows suffering, check out "The Shack" by William P. Young

[Mr Danksworth]

Wow, you really have the mainline to the miracle of the healing Jesus! He must really have a love on for you. Let me ask you one question. Why won't god heal amputees? He/she/it can heal EVERYTHING else, but shows the amputees no love.

[stepsonwater]

Why wont God heal amputees?

I'm not sure if you are asking this because you are an amputee, or you know one, or you simply wish to discuss this angle of healing...but heres my few limited thoughts on what you wrote.

1. IF I were an amputee who was asking for healing but didn't receive any...I might read someones post about Jesus working miracles with a great deal of frustration and/or pain at the seeming silence of God to my own plight. And my heart reaches out to someone in this position.
I myself have experienced pain and sickness that God would not heal, as I mentioned in my last post....although I can not relate to losing a limb which I'm sure is incredibly difficult.
I don't know why God chooses not to heal sometimes...and I would never begrudge anyone for struggling with hating God over this, just as I'm sure he doesn't. IF God really is love and is as big as he says he is...he is also big enough to handle our confusion and/or anger at him. He wants us to be real with him...and that doesn't always look pretty. So if you, or anyone who reads this, is struggling through this or a similar issue right now...Go to God with every bit of what you are experiencing. Don't hold back. He doesn't want you to

2. If anyone has ever told you that it is because you failed God that has caused your pain...I think they are mistaken. God does not cause our pain as a form of punishment. We live in a broken world were bad things happen, and God doesn't usually prevent them completely, but he does not ever seek to harm us or bring us pain. In the new testament, Jesus made it clear that God's requirements for righteous living were to be met in Jesus sacrifice for us on the cross. This means that we are free and clear of the need for God to punish us as a father would his disobedient child. When we make mistakes or even purposefully choose to do wrong...I don't believe God reaches out his hand to slap us.
YOu say that I must have a love-connection with God. Well...I believe that you are right. But it is no stronger than what you can experience. HE LOVES YOU incredibly. I hope that you are able to see that one day and know it deep within your heart, where no one and no thing can take it away from you.

3. I do know of one instance where God healed an amputee. A good friends of mine knows someone who was out on the streets talking with people about JEsus and praying for them. His group met a person who was missing most of an arm and they felt compelled to pray for him. As they asked Jesus for healing, they watched the mans arm grow back.
I have heard this story from my friend and also read about it in a report that this man she knows wrote about his experience. However, I did not see this with my own eyes. I only hope that the guy was telling the complete truth and not making it up to make himself look good.
Irregardless, if I have had the experiences that I have...I believe that God is capable of healing amputees...even if he hasn't much in the past.

I really do recommend that you read the book "The Shack". YOu don't have to agree with everything it says...but it may give you a really refreshing view on why God doesn't always step in. I know that it helped me understand this a lot better.

I hope I don't come accross as having all the answers and that I don't make you feel like it is wrong to struggle with this question...even if you do for the rest of your life. But I just prayed that Jesus will bring you healing as you go through this...physically, but most importantly in the core of who you are...which is not dependent on outward appearances. Go to him...and give him a chance to prove to you directly that he is who he says he is...a God who loves you and calls you his friend. He wants to walk with you through it all and you might just see that he's been there every step of the way up until now.

May you experience friendship with God in all fullness that he has in store for you.

[sooperphreek]

my question pertains to the healing miracles. did jesus really heal you? how do you know? for instance, if i said i was praying to krishna when you were in your room and you go healed then was it krishna who healed you or jesus? and would your convictions be diferent? what if you were raised a muslim and you were healed? would the glory be muhammeds? second amutees cant be healed through prayer because that is impossible. unless maybe we were neo in the matrix and he could binary you back together. then yes.

[Tumult]

Returning to this thread with a slightly different angle...

What is more important to Christians: Peace, Love and Harmony(his teachings?) or Jesus.

Can you accept Love as the highest power/authority without reference to, reverence of or worship of God and/or Jesus?

Imagine a culture that has never heard of Jesus or God and yet wholeheartedly and fervently practices the idea of Love. Loving your neighbor, each other, your enemy....the bible says God is Love and practicing Love is the greatest commandment so are they saved or do they have to actually know about this particular individual named Jesus?

My perspective (enforced by this thread) is that Christianity's purpose is merely to further the brand name (Jesus) rather than promote the product (Love). It's like selling your book to people that can't read to promote literacy. Maybe if you teach them to read they'll buy your book, maybe they won't but you'll both be the better for the teaching/learning.

As long as Christians labor under the perspective that there can be no Peace, Love and Harmony without everyone accepting Jesus then there never will be.

[bdbnkr]

Returning to this thread with a slightly different angle...

What is more important to Christians: Peace, Love and Harmony(his teachings?) or Jesus.

Jesus.

Can you accept Love as the highest power/authority without reference to, reverence of or worship of God and/or Jesus?

No. God is the highest authority. A personal relationship with him cannot exist except through Christ Jesus.

Imagine a culture that has never heard of Jesus or God and yet wholeheartedly and fervently practices the idea of Love. Loving your neighbor, each other, your enemy....the bible says God is Love and practicing Love is the greatest commandment so are they saved or do they have to actually know about this particular individual named Jesus?

I can imagine one... but it is irrelevent as one has never existed. It does not matter how good we believe ourselves to be... all of us fall short of the glory of God. No one has ever always acted in a completely non selfish way for their entire lives. In fact I doubt anyone has gone through an entire year without doing something something in which they put their own interests before someone else's or has felt envious of another or angered because of a personal slight. (I know I am lucky if I can make it a day). Following Christ puts us right with God. One of the fruits of that is that it becomes easier to bring Peace, Love and Harmony into our life.

My perspective (enforced by this thread) is that Christianity's purpose is merely to further the brand name (Jesus) rather than promote the product (Love). It's like selling your book to people that can't read to promote literacy. Maybe if you teach them to read they'll buy your book, maybe they won't but you'll both be the better for the teaching/learning.

A Christian's purpose is to serve God. And I disagree completely with your analogy. Truly accepting Christ is like picking up a book that teaches you how to read.

As long as Christians labor under the perspective that there can be no Peace, Love and Harmony without everyone accepting Jesus then there never will be.

I am confused by your logic here... there never has been absolute Peace, Love an Harmony... now you are implying that this is the fault and will continue to be the fault of a small minority of the Earth's population. As much as it saddens me to admit it I doubt everyone will enter into a personal relationship with God through Christ. As a result we are pretty much guaranteed that we will never be able to test your statement.

[Nebula]

In fact I doubt anyone has gone through an entire year without doing something something in which they put their own interests before someone else's or has felt envious of another or angered because of a personal slight.

Including God, apparently. (Follow me or I will send upon you plague after plague, change your ways or I'll kill you, etc. etc.)

[bdbnkr]

In fact I doubt anyone has gone through an entire year without doing something something in which they put their own interests before someone else's or has felt envious of another or angered because of a personal slight.

Including God, apparently. (Follow me or I will send upon you plague after plague, change your ways or I'll kill you, etc. etc.)

If I was a literalist that might be a tough point to counter... As I do not have any illusions about the Bible being the literal word of God I think I will take a shot at.

Any point in time in the last 3000 years has had its share of fundlementalist self righteous quacks. As the bible is authored by human beings writing about how they experience God it only stands to reason that a few of them were in favour of the more enthusiastic methods of conversion. I guess they also like to believe God also found it effective. I have to admit the "I am going to continue persecuting you and your loved ones (even if it kills you) until you join forces with the Love God" mentality has always seemed a little contradictory. That being said it does not mean that these parts of scripture cannot teach us important truths.

I forgotten how much fun it is to post on the religious forums.