Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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nibs wrote:How could one of gods perfect creations be anything but perfect?


Check out these guys, the Aghori from India. They worship the 3rd face of Shiva. For them everything is perfect, even the most base of pleasures. They live in graveyards, eat offerings to the gods, take the clothes of the dead, eat dead bodies, and other crazy stuff. It stems from the belief that god is the pinnacle of perfection, and a perfect god can make no mistakes, so everything in it's creation is perfect by default. That includes all of human action/interaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

6 part youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0bGrvKV ... re=related

And for those with strong stomachs....CAUTION!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NQufwwVyZY
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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Here's a short Christopher Hitchens video. Christianity is totalitarian. It goes into morality and ethics of christianists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofhpfg75rac
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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soulra wrote:^
You do realize that the bible is a fictional story? It never really happened. If you seriously believe that humans are 'imperfect' because of eating an apple, you have got more problems than just reading comprehension.

Let me see if I get what you are saying.
1) The bible is a fictional story.
2) If you believe something that isn't mentioned in the Bible you have problems (believe that humans are 'imperfect' because of eating an apple isn't in the Bible).
3)Given 2, the only people without problems believe the Bible is the ultimate truth.
Last edited by Glacier on Feb 21st, 2009, 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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You want to know my take on the garden of Eden Story? Well too bad, I'm going to tell you anyway.

God commanded Adam to not eat of the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil".
God created Eve. Adam told her the rule.
The serpent went up to Adam and Eve (read this part carefully, it says Adam was "with her" at the time).
The serpent talked to eve and convinced her God was spouting hooey about the tree when he told Adam.

Adam's thinking:
"Hmm, I wonder if the serpent is right?
Well if I let Eve do it, and she dies, I'm okay.
If I let Eve do it and she doesn't die because the serpent is telling the truth, I'm still okay"

Seems to me, the first "sin" happened before the eating of the apple. Maybe you need to get your comprehension checked there soulra. As it seems once again, you have missed the point.
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

Post by I Think »

Seems to me the first sin was dreamed up by some preacher type dude, trying to control the minds of other people.
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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nibs wrote:Seems to me the first sin was dreamed up by some preacher type dude, trying to control the minds of other people.

Add to that the scape-goating that Hitches speaks about in the vid I posted and you do have a powerful tool for control through fear, manipulation, and intimidation.
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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FunkyBunch wrote:You want to know my take on the garden of Eden Story? Well too bad, I'm going to tell you anyway.

God commanded Adam to not eat of the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil".
God created Eve. Adam told her the rule.
The serpent went up to Adam and Eve (read this part carefully, it says Adam was "with her" at the time).
The serpent talked to eve and convinced her God was spouting hooey about the tree when he told Adam.

Adam's thinking:
"Hmm, I wonder if the serpent is right?
Well if I let Eve do it, and she dies, I'm okay.
If I let Eve do it and she doesn't die because the serpent is telling the truth, I'm still okay"

That's the fun part about myth, allegory and metaphor. Everyone can make their own sense of it, and it is just a story, after all. The problem really comes into focus when people actually start to believe it is real. The god of the desert never created humans with clay or rib bones. There are no talking snakes. None of it is real. It's just another creation story, one of thousands, that humans made up to make sense of the world they found themselves in millenia ago. Now that we have the tools to explain the unexplainable, why mire yourself in bronze age myths?

Seems to me, the first "sin" happened before the eating of the apple. Maybe you need to get your comprehension checked there soulra. As it seems once again, you have missed the point.


That's the fun part about myth, allegory and metaphor. Everyone can make their own sense of it, and it is just a story, after all. The problem really comes into focus when people actually start to believe it is real.
The god of the desert never created humans with clay or rib bones. There are no talking snakes. There is no 'sin'. None of it is real. It's just another creation story, one of thousands, that humans made up to make sense of the world they found themselves in millenia ago. Now that we have the tools to explain the unexplainable, why mire yourself in the belief of bronze age myths?
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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Glacier wrote:
soulra wrote:^
You do realize that the bible is a fictional story? It never really happened. If you seriously believe that humans are 'imperfect' because of eating an apple, you have got more problems than just reading comprehension.

Let me see if I get what you are saying.
1) The bible is a fictional story.
2) If you believe something that isn't mentioned in the Bible you have problems (believe that humans are 'imperfect' because of eating an apple isn't in the Bible).
3)Given 2, the only people without problems believe the Bible is the ultimate truth.


*bleep*? Could you untangle that thought for me?
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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Creating humans from clay or rib bones could be creating life from the elements of the earth and dna of a rib bone, the mentality of the time probably couldn't comprehend full scientific explanations.

It's a good thing the bible doesn't say humans came from a ball of hot magma or you'd be ridiculing that, but because it doesn't say that in the bible you find it very easy to accept. :137:
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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zzontar wrote:Creating humans from clay or rib bones could be creating life from the elements of the earth and dna of a rib bone, the mentality of the time probably couldn't comprehend full scientific explanations.

It's a good thing the bible doesn't say humans came from a ball of hot magma or you'd be ridiculing that, but because it doesn't say that in the bible you find it very easy to accept. :137:


soulra wrote:That's the fun part about myth, allegory and metaphor. Everyone can make their own sense of it, and it is just a story, after all. The problem really comes into focus when people actually start to believe it is real.
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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soulra wrote: That's the fun part about myth, allegory and metaphor. Everyone can make their own sense of it, and it is just a story, after all. The problem really comes into focus when people actually start to believe it is real.


True enough. Particularly when we start talking about the first few chapters of Genesis. After all, who would have been around to record such an event? As acknowledged in the Bible (see preface), these stories began as oral tradition passed down from generation to generation.

Regarding Adam and Eve archaeologists and evolutionists propose that at some point our (apes and human) common ancestor became bipedal. There would have also been evolutionary developmental milestones (similar to human developmental milestones) such as the time we became self-aware (ie. “I am a unique being”) and a time where we developed a sense of what is right and what is wrong morally. Such scientists would tell us that the story of Adam and Eve is just that – a story. It is a figurative account of an evolutionary milestone that was part of our creation. In spite of the limitations the people of the times had regarding science and scientific thought, it is quite remarkable how enlightened it was of them to even present such a figurative account of such a philosophically and evolutionary complex issue (ie. self-awareness, morality).
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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steven lloyd wrote:True enough. Particularly when we start talking about the first few chapters of Genesis. After all, who would have been around to record such an event? As acknowledged in the Bible (see preface), these stories began as oral tradition passed down from generation to generation.


Have you ever played telephone? Now imagine doing that for thousands of years. Sounds reliable to me.


steven lloyd wrote: Regarding Adam and Eve archaeologists and evolutionists propose that at some point our (apes and human) common ancestor became bipedal. There would have also been evolutionary developmental milestones (similar to human developmental milestones) such as the time we became self-aware (ie. “I am a unique being”) and a time where we developed a sense of what is right and what is wrong morally.


Monkeys have morality and self awareness also. It's not an exclusively human trait. Looks like morality pre-dates humanity. Guess we aren't so special after all.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 733638.ece
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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soulra wrote:
steven lloyd wrote: True enough. Particularly when we start talking about the first few chapters of Genesis. After all, who would have been around to record such an event? As acknowledged in the Bible (see preface), these stories began as oral tradition passed down from generation to generation.


Have you ever played telephone? Now imagine doing that for thousands of years. Sounds reliable to me.


Of course oral tradition has its limitations. I wouldn’t argue against that for one second. Compound that with the level of knowledge the people of that day would have had (or not had) and we can see this is just storytelling performed specifically in a manner to figuratively explain something else. What else are you reading into this?

That being said, I can tell you that I work closely with First Nations communities in my present position (in fact I will be away this entire next week into some very remote communities with the circuit court) and it is quite impressive how seriously they take the passing of oral tradition. Anthropoligists I have spoken to up here who also work studying these communities have told me I would be amazed at how accurately these stories are passed from generation to generation.


soulra wrote:
steven lloyd wrote: Regarding Adam and Eve archaeologists and evolutionists propose that at some point our (apes and human) common ancestor became bipedal. There would have also been evolutionary developmental milestones (similar to human developmental milestones) such as the time we became self-aware (ie. “I am a unique being”) and a time where we developed a sense of what is right and what is wrong morally.


Monkeys have morality and self awareness also. It's not an exclusively human trait. Looks like morality pre-dates humanity. Guess we aren't so special after all.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 733638.ece



I’m not sure where you’re coming from or going to with this “special thing”. Still, it is an interesting link. I am curious though why the authors refer to this as new research when I can remember discussing this stuff in anthropology classes I was attending more than twenty years ago. I also remember discussing the possibility that whales and dolphins were showing signs of evolving behavior, including language. I suppose the research itself referred to in the link you provided is new and supports an idea that is not so new.
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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How about this take... Adam and Eve were the first "test pilots" to inhabit human beings... once in a body it is often a struggle between the body and soul as to decisions made involving physical temptations which wouldn't be a pre-body issue. This is where the apple "test" came in. Having originally evolved in warm-blooded bodies until our energy or spirit was able to live on independently of the body we could only inhabit warm-blooded beings. Any spirit in any body would have their own personality, but only the intelligence of the body inhabited.

If you study the more intelligent warm-blooded animals you'll see they all have a sense of good and bad, and the more intelligent, the easier it is to see how they share all the same emotions as humans... anyone with a dog should be able to see this. I also believe the more intelligent animals can sense other spirits on the same way children can better than adults... dogs have been known to do this.

One species inhabiting many... in the bodies the lion shall eat the lamb, out of the bodies the lion shall lie with the lamb. Take the instinct of the body away and replace it with the "personality" and the lion could lie with the lamb while in body as a dog and cat can be taught to get along. Take away the physical forces and influences that bend humans and we'd all get along as well, just as small kids have no prejudices until outside forces change that.

The possibility of having it on Earth as in heaven was a possibility, depending on whether the souls overpowered the bodies... things such as greed are bringing this to an end, and many who think they're at the front of the line have actually moved to the back of the line that matters.
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Re: Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

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zzontar wrote:How about this take... Adam and Eve were the first "test pilots" to inhabit human beings...


Does that mean I can trade mine in on a newer model, or do I have to wait until the next life? And what about that next life? Do I get any choice in the matter because I want to be a starship captain.


(Who do I see about that?)

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