I'm an Atheist

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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Tumult
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by Tumult »

nolanrh wrote:
Tumult wrote:So atheism is a mental rejection that the existence of deity is true, its adherents are those who hold a state of mind in which they trust (believe) that there is no deity.

Let's compromise and say "... believe there is PROBABLY no diety".


I think the problem with probably is that it weakens the confidence or trust that is defined as belief and thus lends itself to weak agnosticism - the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deity is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable.

This sort of thing is why, when using such labels, I term myself simply as a non-theist. I think there is no deity but if there is, that it would be knowable. I think there is a metaphysical connectivity but I do not perceive it as a being (deity).

wikipedia wrote:...philosopher David Hume contended that meaningful statements about the universe are always qualified by some degree of doubt. The fallibility of human beings means that they cannot obtain absolute certainty except in trivial cases where a statement is true by definition (as in, "all bachelors are unmarried" or "all triangles have three angles"). All rational statements that assert a factual claim about the universe that begin "I believe that ...." are simply shorthand for, "Based on my knowledge, understanding, and interpretation of the prevailing evidence, I tentatively believe that....

So, maybe you don't need the probably if you agree with David Hume....
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”
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nolanrh
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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Tumult wrote:I think the problem with probably is that it weakens the confidence or trust that is defined as belief and thus lends itself to weak agnosticism - the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deity is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable.

FuckyBunch wrote:Agnostics believe probably.
Atheists no.


Saying 'probably' is merely a (perhaps overly explicit and redundant) acknowledgement that we can't conclude for certain God doesn't exist.

The most common position in the atheistic community on God's existance is that there is a Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

We've been over this this a couple times in the thread, but for the sake of further argument let's accept what most atheists believe as the definition for an atheist.
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steven lloyd
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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Corneliousrooster wrote:
steven lloyd wrote:I don’t want you to insist I come back with an intelligent response worded in a respectful manner.


Who do you think you are fooling Steven, with your "respectful manner" bit??? You are the least respectful poster I have encountered on here - any topic! Great job derailing yet again though - you are the best at that - hands down


Wow, come on corny. I don’t want to sound disrespectful here. I really don’t. So I guess I’ll just ask you – do you really fail to see the ridiculous irony in your comments here ???

Corneliousrooster wrote: Read as : trying to avoid the real subject and showing your often flawed way of thinking by belittling conflicting views and avoiding all points that put your way of thinking in a corner requiring you to be accountable "to your own opinion".


Actually corny, anyone with any kind of reading comprehension ability would have recognized that I have been completely accountable to my opinion. You’ve either missed it due to a lack of reading comprehension ability, or skipped it due to some level of defensiveness, of feeling threatened. I don’t know why you would feel so threatened by the fact someone has a different belief system than you. Maybe you could tell us if you ever gather the courage to figure it out.

Corneliousrooster wrote: There was actually a back and forth of ideas on the last 3 or so pages that you were absent from ....


Yes, if I was retired or still a teenager with no career or family responsibilities I could spend even more time on these forums. Living in the grown-up world, however, I do have other responsibilities that sometimes need my attention. One day you’ll likely know what I mean.
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steven lloyd
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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FunkyBunch wrote:You say the universe needs no explanation. I say a God would require no explanation.



Good point.
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Corneliousrooster
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by Corneliousrooster »

steven lloyd wrote:
FunkyBunch wrote:You say the universe needs no explanation. I say a God would require no explanation.



Good point.


The universe in and of itself as an entity, is in no way influencing or being used to influence abortion, gay marriage, living together out of wedlock, crusading, damnation, brainwashing, holywars, witchhunts....

God needs plenty of explanation
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Tumult
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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nolanrh wrote:
Saying 'probably' is merely a (perhaps overly explicit and redundant) acknowledgement that we can't conclude for certain God doesn't exist.

The most common position in the atheistic community on God's existance is that there is a Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

We've been over this this a couple times in the thread, but for the sake of further argument let's accept what most atheists believe as the definition for an atheist.


We're discussing belief. Belief is independent of reason. The improbability of the existence of a deity is independent of belief that there is no deity. Atheists may believe that there is no God for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with probability. Perhaps someone the atheist loved died 'before their time', perhaps their parents told them "There is no God.", perhaps they were molested by a priest, none of these reasons have anything to do with probability. Yes, atheists declare that there probably is no God because to declare flat out that "there is no God" is immediately invalidated by the fact that we cannot be certain. That there probably is no deity is one reason atheists believe that there is no deity. Atheists, by definition believe that there is no deity. It is unreasonable to change the definition to fit the belief rather than switch the term used to describe your belief. If you state your belief as "There probably is no God." and you then choose the term that best conforms to that belief, I think you will find atheist is not the correct fit.
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”
-Max Planck
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Corneliousrooster
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by Corneliousrooster »

steven lloyd wrote:
Corneliousrooster wrote:
steven lloyd wrote:I don’t want you to insist I come back with an intelligent response worded in a respectful manner.


Who do you think you are fooling Steven, with your "respectful manner" bit??? You are the least respectful poster I have encountered on here - any topic! Great job derailing yet again though - you are the best at that - hands down


Wow, come on corny. I don’t want to sound disrespectful here. I really don’tYes you do. So I guess I’ll just ask you – do you really fail to see the ridiculous irony in your comments here yes - I am stooping to your level to draw more attention to your blatently obvious derailing and lack of sincere interest in the topic ???

Corneliousrooster wrote: Read as : trying to avoid the real subject and showing your often flawed way of thinking by belittling conflicting views and avoiding all points that put your way of thinking in a corner requiring you to be accountable "to your own opinion".


Actually corny, anyone with any kind of reading comprehension ability would have recognized that I have been completely accountable to my opinionYou have an opinion? must have missed it in all the reading comprehension taunts. You’ve either missed it due to a lack of reading comprehension ability, or skipped it due to some level of defensiveness, of feeling threatenedi certainly do not feel threatened by anonymous forum posters. I don’t know why you would feel so threatened by the fact someone has a different belief system than youyou are the one complaining on an atheist thread. Maybe you could tell us if you ever gather the courage to figure it outumm......yeah.

Corneliousrooster wrote: There was actually a back and forth of ideas on the last 3 or so pages that you were absent from ....


Yes, if I was retired or still a teenager with no career or family responsibilities I could spend even more time on these forumsJudging by your 2000+posts you find PLENTY of time LOL. Living in the grown-up world, however, I do have other responsibilities that sometimes need my attention. One day you’ll likely know what I mean.



Way to stay on topic - this thread is about atheism - not Corny (and I lack reading comprehension says steven.... :dyinglaughing:
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steven lloyd
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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Corneliousrooster wrote: Actually corny, anyone with any kind of reading comprehension ability would have recognized that I have been completely accountable to my opinion You have an opinion? I must have missed it ...


Fair enough. I’m actually quite sure you have absolutely no idea of how it got to this. Pretty much sums it up anyway and provides a sort of blanket explanation to many of your responses.
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Corneliousrooster
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by Corneliousrooster »

steven lloyd wrote:
Corneliousrooster wrote: Actually corny, anyone with any kind of reading comprehension ability would have recognized that I have been completely accountable to my opinion You have an opinion? I must have missed it ...


Fair enough. I’m actually quite sure you have absolutely no idea of how it got to this. Pretty much sums it up anyway and provides a sort of blanket explanation to many of your responses.


Oh - I know exactly how it got to this - there is a kid in the classroom (steven lloyd) that needs constant attention on them so they try to take the spotlight off the topic and place it on themselves...

I am sorry your mother did not hug you more....


Sad.....
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unclemarty
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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Corneliousrooster wrote:The universe in and of itself as an entity, is in no way influencing or being used to influence abortion, gay marriage, living together out of wedlock, crusading, damnation, brainwashing, holywars, witchhunts....


All those things do however have a significant impact on the universe in which you and i are part of.

Of course this statement will be at once dismissed out of hand by some who remain oblivious to the intangible spiritual realm that influences our every thought, emotion, action and reaction. That spiritual realm is at work influencing every human life regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.

The ability to understand, love, forgive others (especially our enemy) starts when we recognize the influences at work in their lives as in our own life. Then we're able to act and react properly based on humility, wisdom and the power of the living God.

This, no doubt, is absolute foolishness, delusion and fantasy to an Atheist. oh well.

This post written while influenced by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMc8naeeSS8
"Jerusalem is a port city on the shore of eternity." - Yehuda Amichai
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Corneliousrooster
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by Corneliousrooster »

unclemarty wrote:
Corneliousrooster wrote:The universe in and of itself as an entity, is in no way influencing or being used to influence abortion, gay marriage, living together out of wedlock, crusading, damnation, brainwashing, holywars, witchhunts....


All those things do however have a significant impact on the universe in which you and i are part of.

Of course this statement will be at once dismissed out of hand by some who remain oblivious to the intangible spiritual realm that influences our every thought, emotion, action and reaction. That spiritual realm is at work influencing every human life regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.

The ability to understand, love, forgive others (especially our enemy) starts when we recognize the influences at work in their lives as in our own life. Then we're able to act and react properly based on humility, wisdom and the power of the living God.

This, no doubt, is absolute foolishness, delusion and fantasy to an Atheist. oh well.

This post written while influenced by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMc8naeeSS8


I agree with everything you say - except "and the power of the living God"

of course everything influences everything else, no matter how big or how small - you have to take what I said in context to the previous post I was responding to.....

God is "used" to influence everything else - the universe is not "used" to influence everything else

What you have said rings absolutely true with me - everything until you throw God into the mix (God is not necessary to understand, love, forgive others. God is not necessary to react properly based on humility or wisdom. Everything you mentioned are human qualities we all share and have the option to use based on our own discretion.)
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nolanrh
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by nolanrh »

Tumult wrote:We're discussing belief. Belief is independent of reason.
Your beliefs may be independent of reason but mine sure aren't. A belief is an idea you place confidence in. If you go around having confidence in ideas that are unreasonable I imagine you'll have a pretty hard go at it.
Tumult wrote:That there probably is no deity is one reason atheists believe that there is no deity. Atheists, by definition believe that there is no deity. It is unreasonable to change the definition to fit the belief rather than switch the term used to describe your belief. If you state your belief as "There probably is no God." and you then choose the term that best conforms to that belief, I think you will find atheist is not the correct fit.


Is it really useful at this point to argue over whether or not atheists are correct in calling themselves atheists? Is there really some kind of battle to be won here? Atheists know what atheism means, we also clearly articulate our beliefs and reasons for holding those beliefs.

I mean honestly, if we weren't talking about god would this even be an issue? If I call myself an a-pink-unicornist but then I am forced to admit that I can't really be sure pink unicorns don't exists would you tell me that I'm not really an a-pink-unicornist" either?
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FunkyBunch
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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I have to agree with Nolan on this one. This topic has been enlightening to me, and I have to thank you Nolan for providing me the opportunity to take part in this discussion. Unless something truly thought-provoking comes up, I am done commenting in this thread.
(Read:Nolan makes a post about something I haven't thought of yet)
(Read:Soulra and Rooster were pointless distractions)
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kgcayenne
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Re: I'm an Atheist

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Glacier wrote:
kccayenne wrote: What a horrid teaching eternal Hellfire is. How unfair! We live what, 70-90 years at best? So that’s 79-90 years of sin and potential corruption. How fair is it then to drill into people that you’ll burn in Hell for all eternity if you mess up? People are being told they will suffer infinite torment for a finite level of sin? That sucks royally! Men manipulated things and presented that notion, not God. The Bible says that death is the result of sin, and we all sin, therefore we all die. There are millions of people who feel the Bible is the inspired word of God and believe that eternal Hellfire is incorrect.

You may be correct, but how do you explain this passage?

Matthew chapter 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


This is about a day late and now definitely off-topic, so I am replying to Glacier in PM.
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Re: I'm an Atheist

Post by Corneliousrooster »

FunkyBunch wrote:I have to agree with Nolan on this one. This topic has been enlightening to me, and I have to thank you Nolan for providing me the opportunity to take part in this discussion. Unless something truly thought-provoking comes up, I am done commenting in this thread.
(Read:Nolan makes a post about something I haven't thought of yet)
(Read:Soulra and Rooster were pointless distractions)


Thanks for contributing FB - your comments were very thought provoking and you are always a welcome voice to differing opinions.

I apologize for not being able to communicate my points better - the repetition of your comments shows my inability to deliver reason in a manner you are used to digesting.

Where did you leave off again??? as a "Christian misinterpretation" defending agnostic who dislikes atheists who are unwilling to comprehend the possibility of the existance of God - organized religion being no fault of God, the actions of organized religion being no fault of organized religion, the universe was started by a unmoved mover, the unmoved mover was started by ..... oh shoot, square one again - did I miss something????

My stating "simply don't believe anything which is unfounded" is foolish because it does nothing to explain all the little BIG questions that no human in their 100 year life span existence needs to know to live. We are a speck in the universe - we are a speck in time - the faster humans learn this and learn to live in unison with the other specks I BELIEVE the better off we'll all be.

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