Where do you stand on the probability of God's existence?

[5VP]

Correct me if I'm wrong,...

OK...

The declaration was written in the first person...

The subsequent inclusion of this declaration in the bible (and various forms or versions of this statement in other ancient texts) may indicate that these statements were/are a "Rosetta Stone" of sorts for the first human(s) that figured out or was "taught" language, reading and writing skills...

The bible is also a genealogical record of the first humans in that particular geological location (middle east) but the bible is not the only ancient record of god(s) which are similarly recorded to have spoken to humans in other areas of the planet.

Curiously, many of these ancient records are produced close to the same periods of time.

I suggest reading about the role of Lord Melchizedek in tranferring celestial knowledge to humans...

[cliffy1]

Stereotyping is so fun.

You are right. It is not only the religious that need boogeyman. Some need political, racial as well as denominational and non-denominational boogeymen to fill their lives with meaning and to feel superior.

[5VP]

Why is that we as consumers are so willing to spend our hard earned $$ on and accept the "magic" of Harry Potter or Star Wars ("the force"), or any other sci-fi alternative view of reality but can't accept and are quick to deny the same supernatural powers of a real and established God...

Maybe because some people don't see god as real and don't think it has been 'established' by any stretch of the imagination.

... and accept the "magic" of Harry Potter or Star Wars as what it is - special effects movie production. Watching and enjoying special effects science fiction movies hardly relates in any way to belief or disbelief in God

True enough, Steven.

So...

You 2 disbelievers can here and now, state with absolute authority,that, the the rest of the planet's inhabitants agree with your perceptions and self-qualifying commentary about the motivations of humans to be taken away from their particular realities?

Of course we know about the process of movie production.

I took Broadcast Journalism and worked in the Vancouver TV/film industry for several years back in the late 80's.

What you are overlooking is the motivations of humans to produce these stories.

What are we trying to recreate through these variant productions (besides million $$ paychecks) and what is it in humans that allows us to so readily accept them into our lives?

Quo Vadis??

[cliffy1]

Maybe because some people don't see god as real and don't think it has been 'established' by any stretch of the imagination.

I think that humans may have evolved to the point where the belief in a god is not necessary to feel comfortable in our skin and on the planet. For primitive man it may have been, but in this day and age god may be irrelevant as humans are beginning to come into their own. We may no longer need this insecure, demanding despot to keep us in line, although it does seem, if you watch the news at all, that we may be a little premature in getting rid of this incentive to be good to each other.

[cliffy1]

So...

You 2 disbelievers can here and now, state with absolute authority,that, the the rest of the planet's inhabitants agree with your perceptions and self-qualifying commentary about the motivations of humans to be taken away from their particular realities?

Of course we know about the process of movie production.

I took Broadcast Journalism and worked in the Vancouver TV/film industry for several years back in the late 80's.

What you are overlooking is the motivations of humans to produce these stories.

What are we trying to recreate through these variant productions (besides million $$ paychecks) and what is it in humans that allows us to so readily accept them into our lives?

Quo Vadis??

Perhaps the over simplification of reality, as portrayed in the bible, was designed to explain more complex concepts to simple desert folks thousands of years ago. Our understanding of science and other realms of knowledge require that we stop using metaphors and allegories to explain our own existence.

[Nebula]

5VP, you're trying to make a correlation where none exists.

People may get lost in a movie for a couple of hours, but do not come away from it believing it is real.

I have books written in the first person. Are they to be taken as gospel also? (Real?)

At the end of the day, your bible is a book, like any other book. It is words on a page. It is your choice to believe that it is real or not. In my world, the bible is no more real than a Tom Clancy novel. Actually, a closer comparison would be Aesop's Fables.

[steven lloyd]

Why is that we as consumers are so willing to spend our hard earned $$ on and accept the "magic" of Harry Potter or Star Wars ("the force"), or any other sci-fi alternative view of reality but can't accept and are quick to deny the same supernatural powers of a real and established God...

Maybe because some people don't see god as real and don't think it has been 'established' by any stretch of the imagination.

... and accept the "magic" of Harry Potter or Star Wars as what it is - special effects movie production. Watching and enjoying special effects science fiction movies hardly relates in any way to belief or disbelief in God

True enough, Steven.

So...

You 2 disbelievers can here and now, state with absolute authority, that, the rest of the planet's inhabitants agree with your perceptions and self-qualifying commentary about the motivations of humans to be taken away from their particular realities?

A disbeliever ? A disbeliever in what are you presuming ? And why would I state with anything, let alone authority, that anyone agree with my perceptions regarding the nature of existence, purpose and God (note I use a capital letter in the spelling of God). You seem to place a lot of authority in a book that originates mostly from the oral tradition of primitive tribes (see preface of "The Bible"). What’s your reality and why do you presume we should accept it as truth ?

[fluffy]

What’s your reality and why do you presume we should accept it as truth ?

There's no shortage of "I'm right and you're not" school of thought on both sides of the fence. No matter where you sit on the does/doesn't yes/no scale of God's existence the simple act of condemning another for not sharing your views shows that something is missing from your program. "God" as an external force is firmly entrenched in the realm of the unknown, thus it has always been. Sure you can have theories, but they remain just that, theories. Holding up some dusty old tome full of more theories that someone put to paper a couple of millenia past as "proof" of your theories, well you don't have to be a lawyer or a scientist to see where that one is going. While it may provide a convenient explanation for some of life's mysteries the bottom line is that it's still just theory. On the other hand, given that "God" is an internal force of our own creation then it is going to be a very personal thing, tailored to fit an individual's own current belief system, and not subject to comparison to another's without a huge degree of open-mindedness and a poet's communicative skills. We can all speak about what works for us, but ultimately the only "right" answer has to be "I don't know."

[5VP]

I've never declared the bible to be the final authority about God. I just don't readily dismiss it as others here are able to.

In fact, I've mentioned, many times that I regularly read many other ancient and diverse holy scriptures and other "eclectica" as well as tapping my personal experiences as the core of any "belief" I have on the subject of God.

As far as knowing anything for sure is concerned...

I know I didn't create this planet but apparently a celestial entity called God has made this claim.

Even though I wasn't there to prove otherwise I can see that much of humanity's early development leading to today's civilization was based on God(s) existence (not just the christian god) and that this planet earth is a wonderful creation and though I know I don't remember asking to be born on this planet; here I am and I have an attitude of gratitude for this gift of life.

God is also an internal force but it is an internal force shared by all of us despite any disbelief or 21st century revisionist thinking.

If we didn't have this omnipresent connection than we would not feel the collective outrage when murder or other injustices occur which tweak our internally collective sense of balance of right and wrong or good and evil and gives us this sense of outrage. Think of God as the original celestial Facebook and that we are all "friends"...

If this were not true and we didn't have this imbued collective human bond, than we would all be like animals and simply walk over our neighbors when they die and we'd let them rot in peace as we fight each other while groveling over scraps of food.

I know that we are not animals and that the guiding principles for human conduct were codified and written down millennia ago and that for the most part, we have been able live within these principles for most of human history without questioning their basic values.

I know that there are many scientifically provable, yet unseen forces that influence every second of our existence (ie. time)and I know enough to not doubt their unseen presence just as I know that god's hand is also a part of these unseen forces.

I know that saying "I don't know" isn't a correct enough answer to change the existence of these unseen forces; so it's pointless to say "I don't know" and expect others to accept that as the final answer when the experiences of others is indicating to them that they do know...

I know that, just because there are those here who have not been able to see and feel god's presence does not mean that those who have experienced it and live their lives accordingly, are wrong...

[Nebula]

If we didn't have this omnipresent connection than we would not feel the collective outrage when murder or other injustices occur which tweak our internally collective sense of balance of right and wrong or good and evil and gives us this sense of outrage. Think of God as the original celestial Facebook and that we are all "friends"...

Now that is a quote worth repeating. Mystical. Love it.

[fluffy]

I know I didn't create this planet but apparently a celestial entity called God has made this claim.

But isn't the fact that all reference to this "claim" comes from a human source sufficient reason to question its veracity?

[steven lloyd]

... , just because there are those here who have not been able to see and feel god's presence does not mean that those who have experienced it and live their lives accordingly, are wrong...

I would never argue that - never. But as fluffy has alluded to, that kind of experience is a very personal thing (and hopefully did not come soley from reading ancient texts or hearing of some “claim”). While I can appreciate your desire for sharing it is a very personal journey and can only be your truth, perhaps shared only with like-minded people or people of shared experience. The writings of the Bible and other ancient texts are just that – ancient written word transcribed from oral tradition by ancient tribes. And while archaeologists who have researched and studied the Bible’s stories and found evidence to support much of what is written there are still too many holes for it to be an accurate historical account (in addition to its multiple re-translations and edit motivated by political purpose) . Besides, as has been stated, apart from the genealogical tracing this book tells of a people’s claims about God – not God’s claims about Himself. People’s choice to pursue spirituality or not is theirs, and proof or evidence of God is not necessarily found or sought through the words of others.

[cliffy1]

It would seem that we are coming closer to agreement on this: the personal experience of the divine is far more palatable than relying on ancient texts. The experience is personal because how it is experienced depends on ones personal beliefs and life experiences.

For me, beliefs restrict how the divine (and life) is experienced. By having an open mind we open ourselves to experiences that we would otherwise dismiss as anomalies. A belief that there is no divine presence would restrict life's experiences even more.

I was raised Catholic but rejected the belief system at an early age. I would say to anyone who wanted to discuss god that if god would come down and stand in front of me and declare who he was, I would kick him in the crotch. When I was 26 I moved to the Cariboo region of BC to live in the forest. Having been raised in the city, I was ill prepared for what I experienced. Besides lacking the obvious skills necessary to survive in the wilderness, my rejection of god also turned out to be a handicap.

I began to be aware that my actions had unforeseen consequences. Slowly I began to see forces at work that I had never experienced living in the city. Over time, I studied many different subjects looking for answers to the questions that arose out of my experiences. I studied metaphysics, parapsychology, native spirituality, comparative religious philosophies and psychology.

Long story short, the divine presence and influence was impossible to ignore. To appreciate it, one does not have to join a religion, acknowledge the existence of a god or read any ancient texts because it is present in your life. it is innate in the very life that is all around us. Natives say that life is a web, with everything interrelated and interdependent. Pluck one strand and it resonates through the whole web, influencing everything in it.

Religion has removed us, psychologically, from the divine by creating a god that is "out there". To me, that is the great fallacy of religion.There is no separation. We are all part of the divine energy that permeates the Universe and binds us all together. That is why the aboriginal people refer to all the plants, animals, bugs etc. as brothers and sisters.

[5VP]

I've alluded to the non-religious personal connection aspect of God many times and also mentioned, to the apparent deep chagrin of many here, that I live in a remote location free of many of the strictures of modern life.

I see those here who resist the probability/possibility of God as being caught in the web of this modern way of "living" even though they may not actually realize how entangled they really are.

IMHO of course...

[fluffy]

To be truthful 5VP, I don't think it's your idea of God that many disagree with, it has been mentioned many times that that is a deeply personal thing. It's the tenacity with which you hang on to the literalist view of the Bible, and continue to present that book as proof of God's existence in the form described therein despite the fact that the Bible is an ancient product of ancient human hands. There is also a degree of arrogance in the way you present that view as if it were the only reasonable option. For you perhaps it is, but you seem reluctant to admit that there are other options.