Where do you stand on the probability of God's existence?

[LoneWolf_53]

I'm kind of funny that way. I know there's no god the way church is trying to tell us. At the same time I'm not ignorant enough to believe that there are no higher powers in the world.

I don't think it's "ignorant" to believe that there are no higher powers in the world. There's nothing to suggest that there are.

There's nothing to suggest that there are?

I'm assuming you agree that there is wind yet you can't see that. You can certainly see the effects of it though.

You don't feel that the extraordinary orderliness of things in our galaxy and beyond suggest a superior creator?

You think the sun just accidentally happened to position itself in such a manner and location as to provide us with just the right amount of radiation to give us the four seasons.

With the amount of high tech gadgets at their disposal, scientists can rely on things like Mars for example, being in precisely the right place years ahead of time when space missions are planned. This doesn't hint at a superior mind having arranged things in a precise manner?

If I handed you a wrist watch and asked you if it had a creator you'd no doubt agree that certainly some human had to have made it.

Yet compared to a blade of grass, the thought that went into the wrist watch is insignificant, by comparison.

Our own DNA is so complex, and contains so much information, the most brilliant of minds still haven't figured it all out, even with the advantage of super computers and such, and you think that was all just happenstance, and not methodically designed?

I'm astonished!

[fluffy]

I don't think it's "ignorant" to believe that there are no higher powers in the world. There's nothing to suggest that there are.

There's nothing to suggest that there are?[/quote]

The complexity of the universe and everything in it can "suggest" something different to anyone who cares to consider the subject. It's not such a far-fetched thought that such a system could evolve unassisted by outside forces, in fact the thought of a consciousness with intelligence capable of designing something so complex is equally if not not even harder to grasp. Perhaps someday the answer will be revealed, but in the meantime it's kind of fun to guess.

[5VP]

Your belief in god seems to have conditions and one of those conditions seems to be not accepting my way of accepting the existence of god while expecting your beliefs to be unchallengeable.

Seriously my friend, I don't think you have anything to teach me about acceptance. That's not an insult or attack, simply an observation based on recent experience. I have never condemned your spiritual views, but I have attempted to explain the reasons why such views don't work for me. You see, the whole 'leap of faith" thing is a bit too much for me. I'm open to possibilities, but in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other it just makes sense to me to remain uncommitted.

Well then...

I hope the fence you're sitting on is a comfortable one...

[fluffy]

I hope the fence you're sitting on is a comfortable one...

That's the whole point, the fence is the most comfortable spot for me at the moment, as opposed to trying to come to a decision in the absence of reliable information.

[LoneWolf_53]

When I see statements like "in the absence of definitive proof" all it confirms for me is that incredibly there are quite a lot of people who really "can't see the forest for the trees".

I see all the proof I need every time I open my eyes.

[fluffy]

When I see statements like "in the absence of definitive proof" all it confirms for me is that incredibly there are quite a lot of people who really "can't see the forest for the trees".

I see all the proof I need every time I open my eyes.

I see the same things as others, but realize that there are many possible ways to interpret them. The existence of God in the traditional "creator" sense is firmly in the realm of the unknowable. You may sincerely believe that such an entity exists, but when it comes right down to it that is a faith based belief. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong, because since we don't know for sure then it is possible that this God does exist. On the other hand, since we don't know for sure then it is equally possible that the atheists mat be right. Since I don't know for sure then I choose to say "I don't know for sure." Does that make me wrong? Since we don't know for sure all it makes me is different from those who are firm in the their beliefs.

[5VP]

So...

Any idea of which direction you're facing while riding this fence? Which side of the fence do you drop down onto for feeding or does someone serve you?

Is there a toilet there? Bed? TV? Phone? Roof over your head?

Where does one get a saddle for fence sitting? I can't imagine it to be at all comfortable to just sit on such a narrow platform unless one likes a bruised an/or splinter laced butt.

Is the builder of the fence reputable with thousands of years of experience like God?

How many of your neighbors are similarly using the fence?

What is the load tolerance of the fence?

What material is it made out of?

When I see statements like "in the absence of definitive proof" all it confirms for me is that incredibly there are quite a lot of people who really "can't see the forest for the trees".

I see all the proof I need every time I open my eyes.

My sentiments too...

[1nick]

Being on the fence offers the best vantage point.
Being on one side or the other you lose half the view.

[cliffy1]

Being on the fence offers the best vantage point.
Being on one side or the other you lose half the view.

I guess one could say that I'm a fence sitter too. I look to both sides and see conviction, one way or the other and wonder how someone can be so sure based on the lack of evidence either way. But I think it is amusing that both sides feel a need to convince themselves that the other side is wrong. Seems to me that, in the interest of peace and harmony, a "live and let live" attitude would go a long way.

[5VP]

Being on the fence offers the best vantage point.
Being on one side or the other you lose half the view.

I guess one could say that I'm a fence sitter too. I look to both sides and see conviction, one way or the other and wonder how someone can be so sure based on the lack of evidence either way. But I think it is amusing that both sides feel a need to convince themselves that the other side is wrong. Seems to me that, in the interest of peace and harmony, a "live and let live" attitude would go a long way.

Powerful words indeed but...

As far as losing half the view goes;

It really depends on the type of fence you're sitting on and who's watching your backs on that fence and will anyone be able to reach up to the lofty heights of your fence to help you or do you expect others to serve you while you just sit and wait??

Is it really a fence or a barricade? For whom?

How far down will the fall be for you and/or will you be able to lift others up to your lofty perch?

By what route did you find yourselves on this fence?

Who built it?

[cliffy1]

Powerful words indeed but...

As far as losing half the view goes;

It really depends on the type of fence you're sitting on and who's watching your backs on that fence and will anyone be able to reach up to the lofty heights of your fence to help you or do you expect others to serve you while you just sit and wait??

Is it really a fence or a barricade? For whom?

How far down will the fall be for you and/or will you be able to lift others up to your lofty perch?

By what route did you find yourselves on this fence?

Who built it?

We are speaking metaphorically. I think, by the incredible organization of the Universe, that there may have been an intelligent awareness that caused all this to come together, but I have not seen any evidence that said awareness has anything to do with the affairs of man. Having studied comparative religion and the history of religion, I am inclined to see the fallacy of the existence of the god profiled in the holy books. I have adapted a much broader view of spiritual matters and find religion and religious thinking very restrictive. Religion creates an us and them way of viewing life and I am more inclined to be all inclusive, more like what Jesus is supposed to have said about we are all children of the father sort of thinking. But I prefer to get my spiritual connection from nature itself because at least that is tangible.

[Bsuds]

Kinda sums it up for me.

[5VP]

Powerful words indeed but...

As far as losing half the view goes;

It really depends on the type of fence you're sitting on and who's watching your backs on that fence and will anyone be able to reach up to the lofty heights of your fence to help you or do you expect others to serve you while you just sit and wait??

Is it really a fence or a barricade? For whom?

How far down will the fall be for you and/or will you be able to lift others up to your lofty perch?

By what route did you find yourselves on this fence?

Who built it?

We are speaking metaphorically. I think, by the incredible organization of the Universe, that there may have been an intelligent awareness that caused all this to come together, but I have not seen any evidence that said awareness has anything to do with the affairs of man. Having studied comparative religion and the history of religion, I am inclined to see the fallacy of the existence of the god profiled in the holy books. I have adapted a much broader view of spiritual matters and find religion and religious thinking very restrictive. Religion creates an us and them way of viewing life and I am more inclined to be all inclusive, more like what Jesus is supposed to have said about we are all children of the father sort of thinking. But I prefer to get my spiritual connection from nature itself because at least that is tangible.

Persactly...

This is what I've espoused from the beginning of these thread topics.

The personal attacks aside here, it remains clear to me that the true churches of god reside in nature and within oneself (gnosis).

In my experience and opinion; living?, as most folks here do, in an urban swirl of rampant consumerist values and "Cowabunga dude!; Don't have a cow" clips of reality has muddied the real message(s) and the evidence of this loss of connection to god is apparent to me by the variety of some of the posts here on the subject.

Senses are much keener in the wilderness...

[fluffy]

But I think it is amusing that both sides feel a need to convince themselves that the other side is wrong..

Perhaps believing the other side is wrong lends some credence to a position that can't be proven right?

[cutter7]

I will believe in creation until science can create life out of inert objects. good luck with that