Stupidity or Incompetence?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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steven lloyd
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by steven lloyd »

Corneliousrooster wrote: I am sure there was a jesus christ - i am sure he claimed to be the son of god - i am sure he had followers that thought he could do no wrong and was enlightened (we have had quite a few memorable ones in the last few generations as well - society in general just thinks they are "crazy' though.....) i am sure that Jesus was given the death penalty and made an example through public humiliation (along with many, many others....)


I believe the history is quite clear. Our calendar year assumes his existence, and while many Christian holidays (eg. Christmas and Easter) actually coincide with pagan events, they were created by Roman government to appease both Christians and pagans, and obviously acknowledge Christ’s existence as well.

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

Answer: Typically when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with "outside of the Bible." We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., 100+ years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

It is also important to recognize that in 70 A.D., the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground! We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eye-witnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

Considering the fact that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant backwater area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious "Christians" ("named after Christus" which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats. . . . He was [the] Christ . . . he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." One version reads, "At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

In conclusion, there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the 12 apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.


There does exist the Christ myth theory (also known as the nonhistoricity hypothesis, Christ myth, or Jesus myth) which is the contention that Jesus did not exist as a historical person and that the Jesus of the New Testament was created by early Christians based on earlier mythology, however, this idea would better be discussed on the conspiracies subforum.

Corneliousrooster wrote: I am also sure that no water was walked on, no loaves feeding thousands, no fishes being multiplied, no water into wine, no blind seeing, no deaf hearing, no lepers being taken into the flock, no cripples walking, no sick being cured by mere contact.


I have a hard time with any of this as well. However, I will suspend judgement and not just simply throw all of it out the window. Some I will attribute to exaggeration as was prone in story-telling (see stories of Beowulf, Achilles, etc.), and some I will attribute to the power of faith.

Corneliousrooster wrote: I keep hearing about this "fear" being the reason for not believing and ridiculing believers. Is it not a "fear" that has all the believers so dedicated to the concept of a creater (and son)???


It is definitely not fear that has all the believers so dedicated to the concept of a Creator. In truth, while fear and guilt might be associated with faith in Catholicism, Catholics represent a small percentage of the entire Christian faith and an even smaller percentage of theists or those who are spiritually inclined. In fact, it is the politically motivated and rigid expression of faith of the Catholic Church that gave rise to the birth of so much splintering among Christian groups. For the vast majority of Christians, it is love and gratitude that motivates them in their faith. Don’t take my word for it. Go ask a variety of Christians.

As for suggesting that "fear" is the reason for not believing and ridiculing believers, that was not an idea I was putting forward. There is no doubt fear of something, as evidenced by the obsessive need to continue ridiculing, but I am not presuming what that fear is based on. One guess I had was that this fear arose with the discovery one was unable to change the core spiritual beliefs of others and the inability to accept that. Whatever the fear is based on is just speculation on my part. That it exists, however, is actually quite apparent.
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Big ned »

Exactly, In LDS theology we believe that there is no hell. There are degrees of glory, all of which are much better than here on earth. We strive for the highest degree. We believe that we were all loyal to our heavenly father's plan in the preexistence and earned that right to come to earth. We will be held responsible for our actions and pay for our sins if we don't take advantage of the atonement, but it will not be a literal pit of fire and brimstone that burns forever.

We believe in a loving father in heaven and His son Jesus Christ.
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Big ned »

soulra wrote:Any historical evidence? I certainly haven't seen any. Add to that 'divine son of god' born of a virgin, and you have even less evidence. Next thing you will tell me that he travelled to N.America after his 'resurrection'....oh wait, that's ned's territory.


Well, interesting you should bring that up soulra... you want historical evidence that Christ not only existed, but visited the americas? You obviously don't do much research before you open your yapper (as the motivational speaker would say)

Many of the mesoamerican tribes had traditions passed down from generation to generation that mirror the Book of Mormon's account of Christ visiting the Americas.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php ... e=amJtcw==

http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/bom/Viracoch.html

http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/bom/mayacode.html

Just a few for you to ponder... Hope this helps you out.
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Mr Danksworth »

Seriously? :dyinglaughing: That's the funniest BS I've read in a while. Thanks for proving yet again that mormons are a kooky lot. Kind of funny how no one outside of the lds gives credence to any of these claims. I wonder why.
Maybe because your starting point is a con man (who married a 14 year old girl) saying that he found(then lost) some golden tablets, written in a language that never existed. Oh yeah, and only the con man can read them.....with special glassses. Yeah sounds like a good scientific basis for fictional jesus to come and hang out with the indigenous populations of the americas. Yeeeah right. :dyinglaughing:
Last edited by Mr Danksworth on Mar 4th, 2009, 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Air Wrench
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Air Wrench »

You are both nuts.
Big ned
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Big ned »

Soulra, you are missing the very point you asked for.

I don't care that you think this is all a bunch of hooey. You asked for archeological evidence that Christ visited the americas. When I provide said evidence all you can do is resort to name calling and belittling? Your ability to debate with your scientific background and open mindedness is very underwhelming.

If you don't think the research and archeology are legitimate why don't you try posting evidence yourself. None of the research was done by Joseph Smith, so it don't know why you revert back to that. It's obvious you didn't expect anything to be posted and have no rebuttle.

Much of the research provided was done by non lds scholars, so you can't even use that as a reason to discredit. It was found independently of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.
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warden
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by warden »

Can someone explain to me exactly what Mormon ideologies and whether or not Christ existed has to do with the current Pope?

Seriously, it's the same few posters that turn every thread in the religion section into the same tired argument over and over again.

It's no longer getting old, it's decrepit. :127:

Back to the pope, shall we?
Not all those who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien
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sobrohusfat
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by sobrohusfat »

warden wrote:Back to the pope, shall we?


how dare you dare turn your back to the pope!?! :chased:
The adventure continues...

No good story ever started with; "So i stayed home."
Big ned
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Big ned »

Looks like without our input, things just up and die. I guess that's what you are going for?

If you want my opinion on the pope... he is far from infallible as we have seen recently. He is a figure head for a large religion... He doesn't even claim revelation.
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warden
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by warden »

Ned: :127:

I think perhaps the Pope is both stupid and incompetent...

Condoms Not the Answer in AIDS Fight, Pope Says
Not all those who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien
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FunkyBunch
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by FunkyBunch »

Maybe he's right about the condom thing...

This is what happened in Uganda, as reported by Cambridge University:

An analysis of population-based surveys of HIV risk conducted in 1989 and 1995 showed that there had been an important reduction in some key HIV risk behaviours between these two dates, in particular an increased age of sexual debut, a reduction in numbers of sexual partners, and increased use of condoms with both regular and non-regular partners.

In particular, the investigators highlight that between 1989 and 1995 there was a 60% reduction in the number of persons reporting casual sex in the previous year. The number of individuals reporting casual sex in neighbouring countries did not change substantially between these dates. However, comparable numbers of Ugandans and individuals living in neighbouring countries reported condom use. This suggested to the investigators that “reduction in sexual partners and abstinence among unmarried sexually inexperienced youth … rather than condom use, are the relevant factors in reducing HIV incidence.”


from the article:
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/ed007047 ... 42817e.asp
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usquebaugh
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by usquebaugh »

The Pope's hypocrisy with regard to "protection."
Where oh where’d my body go?
Africa or Mexico?
Where or where’d my body go?
Where’d my body go?
Have you seen my ghost?
Staring at the ground?
Have you seen my ghost?
Sick of those *bleep* clouds
Big ned
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Re: Stupidity or Incompetence?

Post by Big ned »

I think anyone is incompetent if they don't consider all options.

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