Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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steven lloyd
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

Post by steven lloyd »

writerdave wrote:He wasn't asked about his religion. He was asked about evolution and he flatly refused to answer on the grounds his religion has nothing to do with him being science minister.

I do want a separation of church and state and it was Mr. Minister who raised the religion flag when he was asked a science question.


He was asked a science question with the intent to challenge his religious beliefs (which, by the way, apparently did not include creationism) and was appropriately insulted as his religious beliefs (not interfering with science or politics) were really none of anyone's business.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

Post by steven lloyd »

writerdave wrote:
CaptainAwesome wrote:How is it possible for anybody to believe in both evolution and God creating everything and everybody?

That's very easy.

God creates the heavens and the Earth.
God throws some amino acids in a puddle, then throws in a lightning bolt for good measure.
God sits back with a Coke, watching to see what will come of the primordial soup.
4.5 billion years later, God shakes his head.

Well, something like that.


:dyinglaughing: Very close I bet, and no doubt He's shaking his head. "What the [email protected]?"

p.s I always did consider Coca-Cola to be the nectar of the God(s). :127:

Anyways, again, :sleepdeprived:
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zzontar
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

Post by zzontar »

If his beliefs interfere with his job he should find another one, but if not... a lot of people didn't care for Bill Clinton's sexual escapades yet thought he ran the country well... a lot of people didn't like Ralph Klein's drinking, yet he got rid of Alberta's debt and deficit as promised... so if someone's personal life doesn't affect their job performance, should it matter?

A lot of people believe life on Earth was created and then evolved over time, this could lead to misunderstandings of whether believing in evolution means you think it started that way or happened later.
They say you can't believe everything they say.
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Nebula
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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zzontar wrote:If his beliefs interfere with his job he should find another one, but if not... a lot of people didn't care for Bill Clinton's sexual escapades yet thought he ran the country well... a lot of people didn't like Ralph Klein's drinking, yet he got rid of Alberta's debt and deficit as promised... so if someone's personal life doesn't affect their job performance, should it matter?

Not particularly, nope. But if you ask someone in charge of science if they believe in the foundational principle of numerous scientific disciplines and HE raises the religion flag...
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to arrive at.
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Homeownertoo
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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steven lloyd wrote:He was asked a science question with the intent to challenge his religious beliefs (which, by the way, apparently did not include creationism) and was appropriately insulted as his religious beliefs (not interfering with science or politics) were really none of anyone's business.

It's called gotcha journalism. He answered appropriately.
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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zzontar wrote:If his beliefs interfere with his job he should find another one, but if not... a lot of people didn't care for Bill Clinton's sexual escapades yet thought he ran the country well... a lot of people didn't like Ralph Klein's drinking, yet he got rid of Alberta's debt and deficit as promised... so if someone's personal life doesn't affect their job performance, should it matter?


Big difference I think. One thing is Bill Clinton and the other is ... somebody who's in charge of science who believes in magical guy who lives upstairs and rules the world.
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Homeownertoo
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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writerdave wrote:
zzontar wrote:If his beliefs interfere with his job he should find another one, but if not... a lot of people didn't care for Bill Clinton's sexual escapades yet thought he ran the country well... a lot of people didn't like Ralph Klein's drinking, yet he got rid of Alberta's debt and deficit as promised... so if someone's personal life doesn't affect their job performance, should it matter?

Not particularly, nope. But if you ask someone in charge of science if they believe in the foundational principle of numerous scientific disciplines and HE raises the religion flag...

You are assuming, based on no evidence of what he actually believes and doesn't believe, that he is unfit for his political position. Can you present any actual evidence of his unfitness, beyond mere assumption? Are his political policies or positions tainted by unscientific thinking? Is he forcing the gov't's science programs through a religious filter? Are people in his department questioning his fitness or leaking evidence of his inability to do his job? Just asking for the kind of evidence that would support your conclusion.
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zzontar
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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CaptainAwesome wrote:
zzontar wrote:If his beliefs interfere with his job he should find another one, but if not... a lot of people didn't care for Bill Clinton's sexual escapades yet thought he ran the country well... a lot of people didn't like Ralph Klein's drinking, yet he got rid of Alberta's debt and deficit as promised... so if someone's personal life doesn't affect their job performance, should it matter?


Big difference I think. One thing is Bill Clinton and the other is ... somebody who's in charge of science who believes in magical guy who lives upstairs and rules the world.


You forgot to add he must think God has a big white beard and sits on the clouds. :127:

Yes, it is a big difference... both Clinton and he are religious... one was in charge of the science department, which you completely disagree with, the other was in charge of the USA, which doesn't seem to bother you... kind of perplexes me... :137:
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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Seems as though the foot soldier has clarified that he accepts evolution:
“Of course I do,” he told guest host Jane Taber during an appearance on the CTV program Power Play. “But it is an irrelevant question.”
“We are evolving every year, every decade. That's a fact, whether it is to the intensity of the sun, whether it is to, as a chiropractor, walking on cement versus anything else, whether it is running shoes or high heels, of course we are evolving to our environment. But that's not relevant and that is why I refused to answer the question. The interview was about our science and tech strategy, which is strong.”

Blimey! High heels or running shoes -- I never thought to factor that into the theory of evolution.
:skyisfalling:
Anyone want to give odds for the chance he will invoke the old micro/macro evolution chestnut sometime soon?
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JonyDarko
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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I will be the first to scream at my monitor..... "THERE IS ONLY EVOLUTION!!!"
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Nebula
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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Amen brother.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to arrive at.
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

Post by Glacier »

I guess every single Prime Minister (with the possible exception of Kim Campbell) were unfit for office since they all believed in God?
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Born_again
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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:dyinglaughing: I don't think you would garner much argument there, Glacier, from both sides of the mental divide.
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Nebula
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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I've modified your sentence a bit, Glacier...
Glacier wrote:I guess every single Prime Minister was unfit for office.

Nor arguments here.
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Homeownertoo
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Re: Science minister won't confirm belief in evolution

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Jonathan Kay had a good column on this in the National Post today. Here's an exerpt. (not surprisingly, it echoes some of my comments above. I guess great minds think alike):

"In a Tuesday front-page article — "Minister won't confirm belief in evolution: Researchers aghast that key figure in funding controversy invokes religion in science discussion" — Globe science writer Anne McIlroy breathlessly reports that "Canada's science minister [Gary Goodyear], the man at the centre of the controversy over federal funding cuts to researchers, won't say if he believes in evolution"; that "some have expressed concern that Mr. Goodyear, a chiropractor from Cambridge, Ont., is suspicious of science, perhaps because he is a creationist"; and that "Mr. Goodyear's evasive answers on evolution are unlikely to reassure the scientists who are skeptical about him."

"In fact, Goodyear's remarks (delivered in a private interview with McIlroy) seem to have been carefully considered words from a man trying conscientiously to balance his personal faith with his public responsibilities. To wit: "Obviously, I have a background that supports the fact I have read the science on muscle physiology and neural chemistry … I do believe that just because you can't see it under a microscope doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It could mean we don't have a powerful enough microscope yet. So I'm not fussy on this business that we already know everything. … I think we need to recognize that we don't know."

"But that sort of intellectual modesty and agnosticism is boring: It too closely approximates the way millions of ordinary Canadians think about the mysteries of the cosmos. [UPDATE: Goodyear does indeed believe in evolution; his insistence that his personal beliefs were irrelevant was made in good faith.] So McIlroy instead decided she'd go for the Globe's front page by getting some sexed up reaction quotes from outraged secularists who could be depended on to slam any inkling of spirituality as a portend of theocracy.

"Brian Alters, founder and director of the Evolution Education Research Centre at McGill University, gets trotted out first. He is "shocked" by Goodyear's refusal to disavow any possibility of God's role in human creation. (“It is the same as asking the gentleman, ‘Do you believe the world is flat?' and he doesn't answer on religious grounds" etc.) We also get a chime-in from a "flabbergasted" Jim Turk — executive director of the Canadian Association of University Teachers — who falsely alleges that Goodyear "rejects the basis of scientific discovery and traditions."

"In general, I try not to get too animated by what runs in other newspapers. On slow news days, all editors — including those at this newspaper — occasionally feel obligated to get readers riled up about not-so-exciting b-rate news events. But this particular Globe story is a disgrace. There is an air of witch-hunt about it. What other public figures will the Globe "out" as suspected Godly followers, one wonders? (Will McIlroy be crossing the country, asking provincial health ministers whether they believe in the virgin birth?) The clear implication is that service in the federal Cabinet is a privilege open only to that minority of Canadians who subscribe rigidly to the tenets of atheism.

"And please, no letters from readers complaining about yet another "gaffe" from a "socially conservative" Conservative "re-awakening fears" about a "secret agenda." Unless Canadians expect their politicians to lie about their own personal belief in God, there was no gaffe here — just a journo-concocted pseudo-scandal aimed at the one group in society that is fair game for abuse in the mainstream Canadian media: white, male, English Christians. (Can anyone imagine the Globe pulling the same stunt against, say, a devout Muslim, or a Sikh, or a Québécois Catholic, or an aboriginal who believes the earth was given to us by a "Creator"?) If it becomes a real scandal, it will be solely due to the Toronto media's own echo chamber — not anything Goodyear actually said.
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“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs.” -- Hillary Clinton, 25/10/2014

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