Religious belief and intellect.

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Homeownertoo
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Homeownertoo »

Born_again wrote:Piecemaker is historically one of the most 'measured' responders in these forums, Homeownertoo. You'd have a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go to be even thought of in that respect, seriously!

If you think "In my experience an open bible means a closed mind" is a measured statement, that tells me all I need to know about your opinion of "measured".
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Homeownertoo
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Homeownertoo »

Piecemaker wrote:My thanks to those who can make more sense out of what I write, than I can!
:124:

I was making a metaphorical comment. (Or, hyperbole, if you prefer.)
I was writing from my experience. (Was thumped on the head with an "open" bible!)
I did acknowledge the bible contains some good teachings, so I'm not sure how that makes me closeminded. BTW, many of those teachings are found in other writings as well.

It's not an unreasonable assumption that your "experience" includes knowledge of the existence of the persons I mentioned in my response, people who are obviously not closed minded yet were just as obviously lumped into that category. This is what makes the statement "In my experience an open bible means a closed mind" the product of a closed mind. If you say it was merely a flight of hyperbole, then it was less evidence of a closed mind than a careless mind (and we all are at some time or other). Nevertheless, it was a jarring statement that required clarification. I'm disturbed, however, by those of your defenders who cannot see that basic point.
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

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Piecemaker wrote:I did acknowledge the bible contains some good teachings, so I'm not sure how that makes me closeminded. BTW, many of those teachings are found in other writings as well.


All of the teachings can be found elsewhere, and predate judaism and christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Not a single original idea in the whole shebang.
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Piecemaker
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Piecemaker »

Homeownertoo wrote:
nibs wrote:Home, what is it about Piecemaker's paragraph that indicates a closed mind?

"In my experience an open bible means a closed mind."
In piece's "experience" - cant argue there.

"open bible means a closed mind". since it's her experience it is subjective, also it is an opinion and could change based on circumstances - cant argue there

"The bible is a gathering of writings, translated (sometimes incorrectly) by those wanting to control the masses." thats part fact, and part opinion. You may disagree with the opinion but nothing set out there-in indicates a closed mind.

"While there are many good words and ideas in the bible, there are the same in many other writings not contained therein." This is fact, and indicates a mind open to many books.

If however you take the position that no other book contains good words and ideas, feel free to ignore this post.

It is obviously not a measured self-assessment of Piece's experience but a rhetorical statement that can only be made by a close-minded person, the irony of which appears to have been lost not only on her.
(Without knowing my experience, how can you judge how measured my statements or another's assessments of my statements are, or are not?)
In fact, I am very I thought this was self-evident, but apparently not. So I'll spell it out for you. What she is saying is that everyone, at least everyone living today, who sees some value in the Bible is close-minded. (Not what I said at all. In fact, I said that there are good things written in the bible.) This would include all theologians, all church-goers, many academics who study the Bible, a good many politicians including Barak Obama, etc., etc. You seem to agree, with no supporting argument.

Your last statement is beyond contempt. But if you feel the need to make ridiculous assertions with no supporting argument, go right ahead.


In my original short statement, I was not responding to Home's posts, but to Fundy's. I was making a statement to say that I have found that those that base all their beliefs on their (or other men's) interpretation of the bible tend not to be open to considering that "Truth" may be multi-faceted and that no one person or special group (religion/church) has been gifted with THE TRUTH, while the rest of mankind have been denied.
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Corneliousrooster »

Oh Oh! There they go trying to F-up religious belief with intellect again..............

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Homeownertoo
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Homeownertoo »

soulra wrote:
Piecemaker wrote:I did acknowledge the bible contains some good teachings, so I'm not sure how that makes me closeminded. BTW, many of those teachings are found in other writings as well.


All of the teachings can be found elsewhere, and predate judaism and christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Not a single original idea in the whole shebang.

It's indeed an honour to meet a scholar familiar with not only all the teachings found within judaism and christianity but also where all those teachings can be found in their earlier incarnations. I'm assuming, of course, that you can back up that breathtakingly broad statement. Odd that I've never run into other scholars able to make such a claim. But then, how many have your depth of learning?
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by normaM »

Homeownertoo wrote:
soulra wrote:
Piecemaker wrote:I did acknowledge the bible contains some good teachings, so I'm not sure how that makes me closeminded. BTW, many of those teachings are found in other writings as well.


All of the teachings can be found elsewhere, and predate judaism and christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Not a single original idea in the whole shebang.

It's indeed an honour to meet a scholar familiar with not only all the teachings found within judaism and christianity but also where all those teachings can be found in their earlier incarnations. I'm assuming, of course, that you can back up that breathtakingly broad statement. Odd that I've never run into other scholars able to make such a claim. But then, how many have your depth of learning?

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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by usquebaugh »

^ Homeownertoo

Perhaps soulra missed the mark with his generalizations, but myths contained in the bible can be found in other religious traditions. Even C.S. Lewis said the resurrection myth predates Christianity (read about Osiris!). Also, the Gilgamesh Epic predates the Noah and the flood story. :127:
Where oh where’d my body go?
Africa or Mexico?
Where or where’d my body go?
Where’d my body go?
Have you seen my ghost?
Staring at the ground?
Have you seen my ghost?
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Mr Danksworth »

Homeownertoo wrote:
soulra wrote:
Piecemaker wrote:I did acknowledge the bible contains some good teachings, so I'm not sure how that makes me closeminded. BTW, many of those teachings are found in other writings as well.


All of the teachings can be found elsewhere, and predate judaism and christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Not a single original idea in the whole shebang.

It's indeed an honour to meet a scholar familiar with not only all the teachings found within judaism and christianity but also where all those teachings can be found in their earlier incarnations. I'm assuming, of course, that you can back up that breathtakingly broad statement. Odd that I've never run into other scholars able to make such a claim. But then, how many have your depth of learning?


I challenge you to find me just one of the teachings that is original.
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Piecemaker »

soulra wrote:I challenge you to find me just one of the teachings that is original.


It says somewhere in Ecclesiastes that "there is nothing new under the sun."
:-k Sooo...does that mean there is nothing original in the bible, or does Ecclesiastes contain a typo...or...?

(Fine. I'll stop "cherry picking"...it is unseemly behaviour.) :133:
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Homeownertoo
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Homeownertoo »

soulra wrote:
Homeownertoo wrote:
soulra wrote:
Piecemaker wrote:I did acknowledge the bible contains some good teachings, so I'm not sure how that makes me closeminded. BTW, many of those teachings are found in other writings as well.


All of the teachings can be found elsewhere, and predate judaism and christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Not a single original idea in the whole shebang.

It's indeed an honour to meet a scholar familiar with not only all the teachings found within judaism and christianity but also where all those teachings can be found in their earlier incarnations. I'm assuming, of course, that you can back up that breathtakingly broad statement. Odd that I've never run into other scholars able to make such a claim. But then, how many have your depth of learning?


I challenge you to find me just one of the teachings that is original.

And what then? You'd want another? You seem, my friend, to have missed the point -- which was to tone down the hyperbole and report as fact only what you know to be so. We both know you could not possibly back up your statement. And even if it were true, it would be entirely beside the point of those religions, which was to present those teachings in a way that made them relevant and meaningful to their people. If it is true that there's nothing new under the Sun, it is nevertheless also true that there is value in presenting old verities in original ways that give them new force.
“Certain things cannot be said, certain ideas cannot be expressed, certain policies cannot be proposed.” -- Leftist icon Herbert Marcuse
“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs.” -- Hillary Clinton, 25/10/2014
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Mr Danksworth »

Homeownertoo wrote:And what then? You'd want another? You seem, my friend, to have missed the point -- which was to tone down the hyperbole and report as fact only what you know to be so. We both know you could not possibly back up your statement. And even if it were true, it would be entirely beside the point of those religions, which was to present those teachings in a way that made them relevant and meaningful to their people. If it is true that there's nothing new under the Sun

So, what you are saying is, you can't find one? But that doesn't matter, because you believe?

Homeownertoo wrote:, it is nevertheless also true that there is value in presenting old verities in original ways that give them new force.


Sweet, like the new Star Trek? I'm a believer!
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Homeownertoo
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Homeownertoo »

soulra wrote:
Homeownertoo wrote:And what then? You'd want another? You seem, my friend, to have missed the point -- which was to tone down the hyperbole and report as fact only what you know to be so. We both know you could not possibly back up your statement. And even if it were true, it would be entirely beside the point of those religions, which was to present those teachings in a way that made them relevant and meaningful to their people. If it is true that there's nothing new under the Sun

So, what you are saying is, you can't find one? But that doesn't matter, because you believe?

Homeownertoo wrote:, it is nevertheless also true that there is value in presenting old verities in original ways that give them new force.


Sweet, like the new Star Trek? I'm a believer!

It is unfortunate that you are apparently incapable of responding in a mature, intelligent manner. My mistake thinking you could. I won't make that mistake again.
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“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs.” -- Hillary Clinton, 25/10/2014
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Mr Danksworth »

Nice aversion/diversion tactics. You can't even answer a simple question.
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Re: Religious belief and intellect.

Post by Piecemaker »

Homeownertoo wrote:And what then? You'd want another? You seem, my friend, to have missed the point -- which was to tone down the hyperbole and report as fact only what you know to be so. We both know you could not possibly back up your statement. And even if it were true, it would be entirely beside the point of those religions, which was to present those teachings in a way that made them relevant and meaningful to their people. If it is true that there's nothing new under the Sun, it is nevertheless also true that there is value in presenting old verities in original ways that give them new force.


I agree. Unfortunately, a verity from one person's perspective, may not be a verity from another's. It's subjective.
Even when a verity is agreed upon, the interpretation may not be the same.
For example, "Treating others as you would like to be treated" (aka Golden Rule) is a verity found in many religions. It is found in many religions that attempt to force their way on others. It is found in many religions with racist and sexist practices. It's like a case of my "Golden Rule" is 24-carat, and all others is iron pyrite.

I've wondered if Devil worship isn't just a foil so that unsuspecting followers of formal religions won't realize they are actually worshipping the devil unawares. (Kinda like importing ingredients from another country to Canada, mixing up the food product and then saying it was "Made in Canada." ) Some truth makes it more difficult to sort out what is false.
It's possible to do all the right things and still get a bad result.

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