Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

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steelrules
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by steelrules »

I agree with some of what you have spelled out, but I ask that you think about the following.

Our police forces have been militarized and are allowed to get away with murder.

Public demonstration and peacefull assembly are video taped, demonstrators are intimidated by police.

We are soon to have laws that will allow warrentless wire taping.

Internet service providers will now have to turn over information on sites visited by law abiding people.
Government does not allow you to make decisions for your self, permits & fees are required for just about anything you could ever want to do.

Under our system Government takes 59% of your labour, very simmilar to Communism.

What part of this is not Fascisim? the part where 49% of us go to the polls to elect a government that lies thru it's teeth to get elected, then ignores the people, and it's only concern is to further incerase it's own power and size?

Hellomynameis wrote:For a moment lets separate the Fabian Modus operandi from any specific movement, like fascism.

We can look upon Fabian tactics as a kind of marketing tool on par with repetitive phrasing and transference, they are just one tool in a large suite of tactics that “get the job done”. I don’t see fabianmism representing anything too sinister, certainly almost any issue contains Fabian tactics on the subconscious level: A ‘victory’ in how chores are to be done is a Fabian advancement on the larger front of how the household is governed. On the conscious/deliberate level I’d have to say Fabian tactics are almost naturalistic not that we go around thinking “I’m going to use fabianistic techniques to accomplish my goals” but we do seek out the small victories and advance many of our beliefs on other people in gradients.

Plus, we are living in a world where marketing and the “art of war” are ever progressing: Discovering more about human psychology, collecting and studying data, refining our techniques and delivery methods. However, this is another topic altogether.


… So beyond being cognisant of the fact that movements can be advanced by Fabian strategy (small steps) I think the overarching issue here is if there's a fascist movement taking over our country, no?

I disagree with this almost completely, so many of the governmental actions that people perceive as fascist are, imo, just premature labelling or propagandizing of the ‘opponents’ actions. When we look at it objectively our democracy has a massive gray area, in which the dimensions of freedoms and the governments role ebb and flow, new ideas implemented and abandoned. I have not seen our country get close to the tipping point of fascism or the negative aspects of socialism. What I do see is a bucket load of wrong moves, bad policies and etcetera, plus a mountain of bias that reflects our imperfections but hardly point to a fascist movement.

I guess it comes down to this:

It is easy to perceive a Fabian ploy but nearly impossible to objectively know when one is being used.
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Nebula
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by Nebula »

Hellomynameis wrote: I guess it comes down to this:

It is easy to perceive a Fabian ploy but nearly impossible to objectively know when one is being used.

I completely disagree. I just read this entire thread, slowly, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a good example of Fabian posting in action, where, over time, posters have inexorably numbed my brain and caused me to think of Steven in a little pink dress and ponytails.

I shall now go shoot myself.
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hellomynameis
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by hellomynameis »

steelrules wrote:I agree with some of what you have spelled out, but I ask that you think about the following.

Our police forces have been militarized and are allowed to get away with murder.

Militarized and allowed to get away with murder? This seems more like over dramatization than evidence of fascism, would you care to expand your case here?

Public demonstration and peacefull assembly are video taped, demonstrators are intimidated by police.

I've been part of quite a few public demonstrations (and although it is only anecdotal) I've never been intimidated by police. I've also seen reports of police intimidation/brutality during demonstrations that contain violent elements, I'd call that an unfortunate and unacceptable, for both sides, side effect not evidence of fascism. Authorities given the power of enforcement have always had the problem of a few abusing that power. I ask you, is that a sign of fascism or is it something intrinsically flawed with giving power to imperfect human beings? Also, with rampent allegations flying around it is in the best interest to video tape an event, this also helps protect us from police brutality, no? Now, if they were compiling dossiers on protesters and "disappearing" them, well, that would be something.

We are soon to have laws that will allow warrentless wire taping.

I am very much opposed to the government having this power.

Internet service providers will now have to turn over information on sites visited by law abiding people.

You will have to provide more information on what you are referring to here.

Government does not allow you to make decisions for your self, permits & fees are required for just about anything you could ever want to do.

I would say most permits make great sense and have zero to do with fascism. Some fee's are legitimate others are perhaps not, want to make a case that they represent fascism?

Under our system Government takes 59% of your labour, very simmilar to Communism.

59%?


What part of this is not Fascisim? the part where 49% of us go to the polls to elect a government that lies thru it's teeth to get elected, then ignores the people, and it's only concern is to further incerase it's own power and size?

None, there are many types of corruption,many reasons for voter apathy and many ways that the government (even bad ones) does not only "further increase it's own power and size". Indeed, our BC government has decreased its power and size to, imo, the detriment of the province... But that is a political view point.

"Books tap the wisdom of our species -- the greatest minds, the best teachers -- from all over the world and from all our history. And they're patient."
- Carl Sagan
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hellomynameis
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by hellomynameis »

Nebula wrote:
Hellomynameis wrote: I guess it comes down to this:

It is easy to perceive a Fabian ploy but nearly impossible to objectively know when one is being used.

I completely disagree. I just read this entire thread, slowly, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a good example of Fabian posting in action, where, over time, posters have inexorably numbed my brain and caused me to think of Steven in a little pink dress and ponytails.

I shall now go shoot myself.


Are you saying my bit of fun was a Fabian ploy? btw, save a bullet for me.

Edited to add:

reading a first few pages of this thread is like packing your mouth with sugar granules before you go to bed, but it had to be done, btw I'm still waiting for that bullet.
"Books tap the wisdom of our species -- the greatest minds, the best teachers -- from all over the world and from all our history. And they're patient."
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steelrules
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by steelrules »

Then my freind you need to look up Fascisim and despotism in the dictionary.
Becasue they have suceeded little by little in turning Canada into a system of fascim, It's only a matter of time till there agenda is complete.
Hellomynameis wrote:
steelrules wrote:I agree with some of what you have spelled out, but I ask that you think about the following.

Our police forces have been militarized and are allowed to get away with murder.

Militarized and allowed to get away with murder? This seems more like over dramatization than evidence of fascism, would you care to expand your case here?

Public demonstration and peacefull assembly are video taped, demonstrators are intimidated by police.

I've been part of quite a few public demonstrations (and although it is only anecdotal) I've never been intimidated by police. I've also seen reports of police intimidation/brutality during demonstrations that contain violent elements, I'd call that an unfortunate and unacceptable, for both sides, side effect not evidence of fascism. Authorities given the power of enforcement have always had the problem of a few abusing that power. I ask you, is that a sign of fascism or is it something intrinsically flawed with giving power to imperfect human beings? Also, with rampent allegations flying around it is in the best interest to video tape an event, this also helps protect us from police brutality, no? Now, if they were compiling dossiers on protesters and "disappearing" them, well, that would be something.

We are soon to have laws that will allow warrentless wire taping.

I am very much opposed to the government having this power.

Internet service providers will now have to turn over information on sites visited by law abiding people.

You will have to provide more information on what you are referring to here.

Government does not allow you to make decisions for your self, permits & fees are required for just about anything you could ever want to do.

I would say most permits make great sense and have zero to do with fascism. Some fee's are legitimate others are perhaps not, want to make a case that they represent fascism?

Under our system Government takes 59% of your labour, very simmilar to Communism.

59%?


What part of this is not Fascisim? the part where 49% of us go to the polls to elect a government that lies thru it's teeth to get elected, then ignores the people, and it's only concern is to further incerase it's own power and size?

None, there are many types of corruption,many reasons for voter apathy and many ways that the government (even bad ones) does not only "further increase it's own power and size". Indeed, our BC government has decreased its power and size to, imo, the detriment of the province... But that is a political view point.

"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"
Edward R Murrow
Now a proud member of the NRA & Canadian Sport Shooting Association.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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hellomynameis
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by hellomynameis »

steelrules wrote:Then my freind you need to look up Fascisim and despotism in the dictionary.
Becasue they have suceeded little by little in turning Canada into a system of fascim, It's only a matter of time till there agenda is complete.


Doubtful.


I also doubt that we will see eye to eye on the subject.
"Books tap the wisdom of our species -- the greatest minds, the best teachers -- from all over the world and from all our history. And they're patient."
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steelrules
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by steelrules »

I guess time willl tell.
Hellomynameis wrote:
steelrules wrote:Then my freind you need to look up Fascisim and despotism in the dictionary.
Becasue they have suceeded little by little in turning Canada into a system of fascim, It's only a matter of time till there agenda is complete.


Doubtful.


I also doubt that we will see eye to eye on the subject.
"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"
Edward R Murrow
Now a proud member of the NRA & Canadian Sport Shooting Association.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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hellomynameis
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by hellomynameis »

steelrules wrote:I guess time willl tell.


Agreed
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by Homeownertoo »

It might help to clarify what is meant by creeping fascism in Canada (and here I have great sympathy with the views of Steel and Nab) if we were to distinguish it from the better known Nazi and Mussolini versions.

Specifically, there is in Canada no concerted attempt to impose fascism from the top as both Hitler and Mussolini did. Rather, it is arriving bit by bit as gov't controls (through taxation and how such revenues are used) and regulates an ever-increasing portion of what was once considered private life, and takes on ever-increasing roles that were once considered the exclusive domain of private individuals.

Free speech, property rights, economic liberty and the right to self-defence are all under assault by government. And almost every activity one can do is subject to gov't or bureaucratic control of some sort, from boating (you have till Sept. 15 to get your licence and equip your canoe) to cycling (that wash basin on your head doesn't qualify as a helmet) to installing a sink in your basement to jumping through endless hoops to get your gov't grant for whatever activity you deem in dire need of taxpayer dollars.

Yes, there are no storm-troopers (yet) so let's call it happy-face fascism. Whatever. It adds up to less scope for personal liberty and greater scope for bureaucratic direction as gov't becomes Daddy Warbucks for almost every organization in society and we all, including a large part of the private sector, become dependent on gov't grants or contracts.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by steven lloyd »

Nebula wrote:
Hellomynameis wrote: I guess it comes down to this:

It is easy to perceive a Fabian ploy but nearly impossible to objectively know when one is being used.

I completely disagree. I just read this entire thread, slowly, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a good example of Fabian posting in action, where, over time, posters have inexorably numbed my brain and caused me to think of Steven in a little pink dress and ponytails.

I shall now go shoot myself.


Not even one date ???
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steelrules
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by steelrules »

Thank you for your post Homeowner, I could never have spelled it out as well without getting angry.
Homeownertoo wrote:It might help to clarify what is meant by creeping fascism in Canada (and here I have great sympathy with the views of Steel and Nab) if we were to distinguish it from the better known Nazi and Mussolini versions.

Specifically, there is in Canada no concerted attempt to impose fascism from the top as both Hitler and Mussolini did. Rather, it is arriving bit by bit as gov't controls (through taxation and how such revenues are used) and regulates an ever-increasing portion of what was once considered private life, and takes on ever-increasing roles that were once considered the exclusive domain of private individuals.

Free speech, property rights, economic liberty and the right to self-defence are all under assault by government. And almost every activity one can do is subject to gov't or bureaucratic control of some sort, from boating (you have till Sept. 15 to get your licence and equip your canoe) to cycling (that wash basin on your head doesn't qualify as a helmet) to installing a sink in your basement to jumping through endless hoops to get your gov't grant for whatever activity you deem in dire need of taxpayer dollars.

Yes, there are no storm-troopers (yet) so let's call it happy-face fascism. Whatever. It adds up to less scope for personal liberty and greater scope for bureaucratic direction as gov't becomes Daddy Warbucks for almost every organization in society and we all, including a large part of the private sector, become dependent on gov't grants or contracts.
"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"
Edward R Murrow
Now a proud member of the NRA & Canadian Sport Shooting Association.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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steelrules
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Re: Fabian Fascism, or Fabian Socialism. Do we have a choice?

Post by steelrules »

Here you go Hellomynameis, a short video from Naomi Wolf must see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSeD19m3UE

Hellomynameis wrote:
steelrules wrote:Then my freind you need to look up Fascisim and despotism in the dictionary.
Becasue they have suceeded little by little in turning Canada into a system of fascim, It's only a matter of time till there agenda is complete.


Doubtful.


I also doubt that we will see eye to eye on the subject.
"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"
Edward R Murrow
Now a proud member of the NRA & Canadian Sport Shooting Association.
Sic Semper Tyrannis

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