High school Christian club banned

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hellomynameis
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by hellomynameis »

I don't see how anyone can rationally support a ban on religious clubs on the basis that they are borne of irrational, mythic, non-evidentiary superstitions. Surely even the strong-atheists among us, that fight with the newfound momentum that the Enlightenment 2.0 (as some call it) has given us, should be respecting the freedom that we have within the law. Why cut a slice out of that pie?

If we were to score extracurricular activities and/or school based clubs on merits of educational value than where do we place the bar? Do martial arts clubs get the 'okay' because they encourage physical fitness and mental discipline? Yo-yo clubs for hand-eye coordination? Religious clubs for examination of bronze age literature and self-reflection?

You can see that I am at a loss to find fault with a position (religious clubs) that doesn't really vibe with my outlook as an atheist. Where is the non-emotional and well-reasoned argument for banning them?

It seems to me that facts and truth have a natural habit to distill and become apparent in good time and that attempts to ban anything that blockades the path to fact and truth is hazardous. Why should this be necessary now? I'll grant that maligning the opposition (religion) is a great political move in this advantageous climate that atheism has right now but goddammit I've rarely if ever met an atheist that held political enterprise or the pursuit of truth above the protection of legitimate freedoms.

Whats worse, some posters that have exemplified a persona that I look up to are now taking a stance that makes little sense to me, and not that they're obligated, but I wish that they gave an overarching explanation that fit the subject instead of something that smacked of ideology.

Sonofabitch guys, when I agree with Big Ned over Born Again something is either seriously *bleep* up with my view point or Big Ned has rhetorically kung *bleep*'ed me or what!


I plead for a rationale.



P.S.
Don't mind the 5x editing, I fired first and spelt/grammar'ed later.
Last edited by hellomynameis on Dec 27th, 2009, 11:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Nebula
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by Nebula »

Great post, hello.
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steven lloyd
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by steven lloyd »

Hellomynameis wrote: Sonofabitch guys, when I agree with Big Ned over Born Again something is either seriously *bleep* up with my view point or Big Ned has rhetorically kung *bleep*'ed me or what!


Hear, hear – great post.
Last edited by steven lloyd on Dec 28th, 2009, 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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normaM
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by normaM »

Now Neb I know you are just funning with me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

well a few pages without name calling and mocking, I must be in the wrong forum
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coffeeFreak
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Re: High school Christian club banned

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hellomynameis: I don't see how anyone can rationally support a ban on religious clubs on the basis that they are borne of irrational, mythic, non-evidentiary superstitions. Surely even the strong-atheists among us, that fight with the newfound momentum that the Enlightenment 2.0 (as some call it) has given us, should be respecting the freedom that we have within the law. Why cut a slice out of that pie?


It isn't the ban on religious clubs that should be at issue here, but that there are no guidelines or forms of monitoring of who would oversee this type of club. If one were to get a group of professed Christians together, you might find Catholics (conservative or evangelical), Protestant which could include very conservative to very liberal or evangelical, Baptists, Pentacostals, Anglican, Greek Orthodox, United, etc., or Mormons, Johovah's Witnesses, and the list could go on. Group leaders could come from any one of these belief systems. WHO decides what is "correct"? Would a parent who is a Conservative Baptist be happy to hear that the teacher overseeing a Christian club is Mormon? I think not, especially because many "real" Christians veiw Mormonism as a cult. Religion in any form has far too many forms and interpretations (all of which have created more misunderstandings than any other philosophy), so for any School Board to not allow this type of club is understandable, especially in this day and age of liability and lawsuits. You have to remember high school can include 12yr old kids.

I'm sorry but unless there are permission forms and some idea of the topics for discussion I would not want to see my kid attend this type of group. Touchy topics for Christians can include: abortion, homosexuality, male only leadership, female subservience, birth control, dating, dancing, eating meat, etc, etc ... Religion, let alone Christianity is too broad and multi-faceted to be a simple club.

In my humble opinion I think Christian Clubs should be left to youth groups and Post-secondary pursuits.
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by Mr Danksworth »

^
Well put. I would love to see a comparative religion class in high schools though.
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by Big ned »

Coffee freak. Your points are valid. I imagine you would be one to withhold your child from going to the club. That alone is not enough to do away with the club. You are talking about your personal concerns, and that is fine. The broader topic is one of allowing some clubs, but not others to exist on a school campus. I am a fly fisher and if there was a fishing club that discussed only non fly fishing techniques, I would not be terribly interested. If I were interested in gaining better insight into trawling or spinner type fishing, I would attend. Attendance is voluntary and witht he permission of the parents.

The Christian club I attended in California was interesting and as I stated, I attended for several months and injected a mormon's view on Christianity and learned an evangelical view of the Bible. I did not agree with much of what was discussed, but I learned alot as did the other students there.
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Re: High school Christian club banned

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Big Ned, it is not that I would withhold my child from attending a Christian club, but I would want to ensure the discussions are not extremist. My daughter in fact does attend a youth group and did participate in a prayer group at her school last year which was informal and I was aware of who was in the group so I had no concerns.

As for the comparison to fly-fishing, seems like apples and oranges. I would have no qualms with any skill base club, it is when other's religious morals and values are included into the mix is where I have concern.

As you may have sensed, I am very wary of this type of group, and until a couple of years ago would likely have argued along with you, but I have seen some very cruel acts in the name of Christianity, inflicted upon youth by their leaders and fellow group members from a reputable Baptist Church.

Careful? Oh yeah, you could say I'm very careful; as should every parent be.
Last edited by coffeeFreak on Dec 28th, 2009, 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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steven lloyd
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by steven lloyd »

Mr Danksworth wrote: ... I would love to see a comparative religion class in high schools ...


Agreed - along with a class in comparative ideolgies. Some people refer to these sort of additions to the scholl curriculum. I consider them opportunities to help students learn "how" to think - not to be confused with "what" to think. In addition, with greater understanding there is less fear.
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coffeeFreak
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by coffeeFreak »

steven lloyd wrote:
Mr Danksworth wrote: ... I would love to see a comparative religion class in high schools ...


Agreed - along with a class in comparative ideolgies. Some people refer to these sort of additions to the scholl curriculum. I consider them opportunities to help students learn "how" to think - not to be confused with "what" to think. In addition, with greater understanding there is less fear.


Totally!! It would be a class with a curriculum and I like the "how to think" part; an overview of religion would likely lead to greater understanding and awareness, tearing down walls instead of building them.
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hellomynameis
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by hellomynameis »

coffeeFreak wrote:Big Ned, it is not that I would withhold my child from attending a Christian club, but I would want to ensure the discussions are not extremist. My daughter in fact does attend a youth group and did participate in a prayer group at her school last year which was informal and I was aware of who was in the group so I had no concerns.

As for the comparison to fly-fishing, seems like apples and oranges. I would have no qualms with any skill base club, it is when other's religious morals and values are included into the mix is where I have concern.

As you may have sensed, I am very wary of this type of group, and until a couple of years ago would likely have argued along with you, but I have seen some very cruel acts in the name of Christianity, inflicted upon youth by their leaders and fellow group members from a reputable Baptist Church.

Careful? Oh yeah, you could say I'm very careful; as should every parent be.


That is certainly a legitimate concern and I agree that the #1 point to be had from this conversation is that school boards need to adopt more comprehensive polices regarding student clubs. I do have to disagree with the idea that the varieties of Christianity make a Christian club unfeasible, certainly the fact that they already exist in many schools is evidence that this isn't a problem.

If there was a case where students preferred multiple clubs that catered in specific denominations (or martial arts kids wanting separate clubs for karate, aikido and kung *bleep*) I think it would be appropriate for a teacher/principal to step in and have the students embrace their deferences and form a single club.
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hellomynameis
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by hellomynameis »

coffeeFreak wrote:
steven lloyd wrote:
Mr Danksworth wrote: ... I would love to see a comparative religion class in high schools ...


Agreed - along with a class in comparative ideolgies. Some people refer to these sort of additions to the scholl curriculum. I consider them opportunities to help students learn "how" to think - not to be confused with "what" to think. In addition, with greater understanding there is less fear.


Totally!! It would be a class with a curriculum and I like the "how to think" part; an overview of religion would likely lead to greater understanding and awareness, tearing down walls instead of building them.



:134:
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by I Think »

Oh cr-p HMI I still have to disagree, but then since I do not have your eloquence, will no longer push my radical beliefs.
After all where I went to school, there was 1/2 hr bible study per week & lots of flopping down on the knees to pray, and yet by the time I was 13, (more than a 1/2 century ago) had decided there was no evidence for the existence of a god or gods.
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hellomynameis
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by hellomynameis »

Nibs wrote:Oh cr-p HMI I still have to disagree, but then since I do not have your eloquence, will no longer push my radical beliefs.
After all where I went to school, there was 1/2 hr bible study per week & lots of flopping down on the knees to pray, and yet by the time I was 13, (more than a 1/2 century ago) had decided there was no evidence for the existence of a god or gods.



But... But I have an intense need to know why you still disagree!

PM me or something :smt024
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Re: High school Christian club banned

Post by Big ned »

I have to disagree too. There would not be a pastor trying to "recruit" these kids. It is mostly run by the kids themselves... maybe a guest speaker from time to time. I would never send my kid to a "youth group" from a particular church because I know what goes on at these so called summer Bible camps. This is something completely different.

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