Religion or more?

[Homeownertoo]

"Islam is both a religion and a state, and to be a true Muslim you must believe in Islam as both religion and state. A true Muslim does not acknowledge the U.S. Constitution, and his willingness to live under that constitution is, as far as he is concerned, nothing more than an unavoidable step on the way to the constitution’s replacement by Islamic Sharia law."

-- Wafa Sultan

any comments?

[Captain Awesome]

Define religion. The way I see it, it's more of a way of life.

[Homeownertoo]

Define religion. The way I see it, it's more of a way of life.

That implies no distinction, on this issue, between Islam and Christianity. I think not.

[steven lloyd]

Define religion. The way I see it, it's more of a way of life.

I present the following, but have always personally understood from sociological studies that the institutionalized component was a critical piece in defining religion, and a critical component in separating religion from spirituality.


re•li•gion (r -l j n)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

re⋅li⋅gion   
rɪˈlɪdʒ ənShow Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uh n] Show IPA
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow


A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.[1]

Aspects of religion include narrative, symbolism, beliefs, and practices that are supposed to give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life. Whether the meaning centers on a deity or deities, or an ultimate truth,[2] religion is commonly identified by the practitioner's prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things, and is often interwoven with society and politics. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.

The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction. "Religion" is sometimes used interchangeably with "faith" or "belief system,"[3] but it is more socially defined than personal convictions, and it entails specific behaviors, respectively.

[steven lloyd]

"Islam is both a religion and a state, and to be a true Muslim you must believe in Islam as both religion and state. A true Muslim does not acknowledge the U.S. Constitution, and his willingness to live under that constitution is, as far as he is concerned, nothing more than an unavoidable step on the way to the constitution’s replacement by Islamic Sharia law."

-- Wafa Sultan

any comments?

Scary stuff. It’s encouraging to note, however, that there exists a distinction between Islam and Muslim, and that Sultan described herself as a Muslim who does not adhere to Islam: "I even don't believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim”. She also describes her thesis (A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Radical Islam), as witnessing "a battle between modernity and barbarism which Islam will lose".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan

We can only hope.

[Homeownertoo]

SL, does your lengthy description of what constitutes religion perhaps miss something? For example, did religion, or some particular religion, have a role in the development of liberal democracy, or if you prefer, in the development of the Enlightenment. And, in the same vein, are all religions compatible with LD or the Enlightmentment, and if not, what is their role or place in such secular societies?

[BVulgaris]

To my understanding and what i've read of the torah (old testament and other documents, the bible, and the koran, i dont find any reference to church and state needing to be one.

Islam is not the only religion who's followers believe in a religious state. So does the Zionist movements of the Jewish people. Just as the Vatican is a christian state.

Whats hillarious is that these religions are in some ways born to the same father. Abraham seems to be starting point of the fissure between Issac and Ishmael, Ishmael who continues to be the representation of the followers of mohammad (which does not exactly have continuity to the story).

however i have failed to find any scripture talking about needing a religious state to worship the god of Abraham or to be one of the faithful. Christians least of all because Jesus actively taught against church and state unity.

Further more there is evidence from Mohammad that his motives were to unite the bickering tribes by having one god which united the various tribes and made them pull together to take care of one another rather than abandoning widows with thier sons to fend for themselves (bedowin culture... long story).

The ruling structure of islam came with its adaptation to various ruling parties as has the judeo-christian branch. (just ask yourself why there should be a christian kingdom of god on earth when the bible states that jesus is the person who will bring god's kingdom, and that all other organizations claiming such are false).


anyways, im not here to pick fights, just to get some thought juices flowing.

[BVulgaris]

I also forgot to add, England is technically a religious state (dont know if it still applies). The anglican church is based on the idea that the king is the head of the church. This was due to clashes with the ruler of the catholic state.

[westsidebud]

To my understanding and what i've read of the torah (old testament and other documents, the bible, and the koran, i dont find any reference to church and state needing to be one.

Islam is not the only religion who's followers believe in a religious state. So does the Zionist movements of the Jewish people. Just as the Vatican is a christian state.

Whats hillarious is that these religions are in some ways born to the same father. Abraham seems to be starting point of the fissure between Issac and Ishmael, Ishmael who continues to be the representation of the followers of mohammad (which does not exactly have continuity to the story).

however i have failed to find any scripture talking about needing a religious state to worship the god of Abraham or to be one of the faithful. Christians least of all because Jesus actively taught against church and state unity.

Further more there is evidence from Mohammad that his motives were to unite the bickering tribes by having one god which united the various tribes and made them pull together to take care of one another rather than abandoning widows with thier sons to fend for themselves (bedowin culture... long story).

The ruling structure of islam came with its adaptation to various ruling parties as has the judeo-christian branch. (just ask yourself why there should be a christian kingdom of god on earth when the bible states that jesus is the person who will bring god's kingdom, and that all other organizations claiming such are false).


anyways, im not here to pick fights, just to get some thought juices flowing.

mr home just wants to start a war to wipe out islam, go read his thread on tictoc isreal.

[BVulgaris]

i havent read it yet, but i will.

the fact is the taste of blood for conquest of empire is fresh on the lips of every major military country in the world. They are waiting for an excuse. Some days i wish for a deity to come end it in a hail of fire for which we all deserve, however a pastor once told me a very interesting viewpoint. Revenge is god's alone, and man has no business with it. Jesus, Ghandi, and many others are great historical examples of the power of passive resistance. It causes the attacker to reflect on their own violence towards a peacefull body. I would suggest to all muslims that believe in the holy jihad being a war, to consider ghandi's tactics and using the beautifull word of reason as the spearpoint rather than the barrel of a gun. I would also suggest this to the supposed kingdoms of the world that attribute their governance to the god of abraham. Were it true that these states were followers of the god of abraham, they would be as brothers in a family possibly quarreling, but showing love and compassion never to raise their hand against their brother.

According to these religions it is the powerfull leaders who have exploited these religions and forced brothers to strike at eachother. It is like three siblings fighting over the inheritance. As well as fighting over the love of a father.

[Glacier]

I also forgot to add, England is technically a religious state (dont know if it still applies). The anglican church is based on the idea that the king is the head of the church. This was due to clashes with the ruler of the catholic state.

That is true. It should also be pointed out that the U.S. was founded on disestablishmentarianism because they did not want want one church running the country as England has where the head of state must belong to the Church of England.

[sobrohusfat]

Further more there is evidence from Mohammad that his motives were to unite the bickering tribes by having one god which united the various tribes and made them pull together to take care of one another rather than abandoning widows with thier sons to fend for themselves (bedowin culture... long story).

Instead they took the shortcut of submission by force and conquest.

Islam is not the only religion who's followers believe in a religious state. So does the Zionist movements of the Jewish people.

I don't think so, If that were true the state of Israel would look much different right now:

-there would be none of the current conflict between the secular zionist state of Israel and some of the ultra orthodox Jews who do believe in a religious state - but only as established by the Messiah.

-The borders would reach from Egypt to the River Euphrates and beyond the Jordan...without any more bickering over Judea/Samaria much less over Jerusalem.

-the temple mount would have a proper active temple on it

I would suggest to all muslims that believe in the holy jihad being a war, to consider ghandi's tactics and using the beautifull word of reason as the spearpoint rather than the barrel of a gun.

best of luck with that.

[Homeownertoo]

mr home just wants to start a war to wipe out islam, go read his thread on tictoc isreal.

As usual, Bud, your opinions far outpace your knowledge, which is why I no longer waste my time debating you.

[BVulgaris]

I agree that Israel is not a purely religious state, however following its creation after world war 2 its hard to differentiate whether the creation of the state was because of religious historical validation or some other motive.

I would acctualy love to go to israel and see first hand whats going on in the universities, however i have not had a chance to fully research.

As for having an active temple, look at the efforts going forward to do this. There is allready capital mounting as well as supplies being bought to reinstate the temple. the most prominent of these groups is: Revava. These guys are acctualy trying to complete the "prophecy" of the end of days.

Note these are radical groups and i by no means call the majority of the population there under the same cloth as the radicals. I am merely pointing out the similarities in all three of the abrahamic branch offs.

Something i would like to know and maybe you guys have some info on this. What is the difference between a "secular zionist state" and a "religious state"?

[sobrohusfat]

the Sanhedrin for a start
(would ensure the leadership and the country would be observant to the Mosaic & Rabinic laws)