Religion or more?

[westsidebud]

who cares if muslims want to be a state to, its up to them. end of story

[sobrohusfat]

who cares if muslims want to be a state to, its up to them. end of story
There are 47 muslim countries worldwide.
Or did you mean to say Palestinians want to be a state...?

Muslim countries: 47 worldwide (including 21 Arab states)
Jewish countries: 1

land mass of the 21 surrounding Arab countries 8,368,272 square miles (649 times the size of Israel)
Israel's total land mass 12,877 square miles (slightly more than that of Vancouver Island)

Muslim Population worldwide: 1.4 Billion
Jewish Population worldwide: 13 Million

combined Muslim military - active troops: 4.7 Million
Israeli IDF military - active troops: 176 500 ( 3 Million available for military service - half are women )

1948 self imposed arab refugees from israel: 750 000
1948-67 expelled Jewish refugees from muslim countries: 650 000

arabwld3.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu ... _countries
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html
http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/je ... ugees.html


But you're right, "Palestinians" should have their own state.
And they should call it something like Trans-Jordan, then later shorten it to just Jordan and live in relative peace with ...aah, wait a minute...isn't there....

Yes there is.



:backtotopic:

[hellomynameis]

Scary stuff. It’s encouraging to note, however, that there exists a distinction between Islam and Muslim, and that Sultan described herself as a Muslim who does not adhere to Islam: "I even don't believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim”. She also describes her thesis (A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Radical Islam), as witnessing "a battle between modernity and barbarism which Islam will lose".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan

We can only hope.

I've looked through some of her writings and interviews (courtesy of your wiki link) but I haven't read "A God Who Hates" so I can't say I know her position very well or the logic behind her belief.

I always thought Islam was the religion and that a Muslim was a follower of the religion.

So it strikes me as extremely odd to read something like, "I even don't believe in Christianity, but I am a Christian.", makes me think she is perhaps talking about something akin to the Protestant Reformation, removing many negative elements (political and radical) from Islam. But why the complete divorce from Islam?


Can anyone shed more light on her position for me?


It certainly intrigues me, I may have to buy her book.

[BVulgaris]

Many divorce themselves from islam some what because of the history of its more extreme elements.

My mother grew up in a muslim country which was dealing with the remenants of the japanese from ww2. The level of inhuman action there was unfathomable. The reaction of the locals left in the physical and economic distruction was to look to their local religious leaders to fight back and organize. The local Imum took on the role of education and state governance for a while, but these religious leaders continually played off the fears of the people. Eventually any foriegn entity was called "infidel" and there were small gangs of locals that would start "weeding out" many foreigners that were living in the villages. (this is similar to what chinese locals did when the english started having a presence in china.)

These are the things in islam (a muslim is "one who submits to god") which are the darker side of it's ministry. But there are atrocities and radicals in ALL religions. I have not seen any religion, save Buddhism, that has not committed similar atrocities in the name of thier god(s) and way of life.

On the topic of isreal vs. the arab nations, i will point to the history of Isreal's demise. It had to do largely with the early Akkadians after the split of the jewish kingdom into Judah and Isreal. Then when the romans occupied the area there was a chrisian decree that the city would lay in ruins and as for the temple "there will exist not a stone upon a stone". And so did the romans eventually destroy the temple and became fed up with the radical jews, the same ones in power that decided to put an innocent man to death (according to the historical records... i dont mean this as any form of antisemetism. It is a historically recorded event where a man who was called jesus of nazareth that was put to death instead of a known criminal, read the story if you havent).

Then there are the crusades. I think everyone knows what happened in the name of god there. I would pull attention to the fact again that the Vatican is a religious state! With a religious ruler who claims to be the voice of god. (viccer of christ)

But for some reason after world war 2, many in the world decide that the creation of a jewish state in the holiest city in the world (for the abrahamic religions) woudl be a good idea. I would challenge any commentary that these countries did the right thing. The action represented a serious slap in the face to all 3 branches of the abrahamic religions, it was a case of state soverigns imposing a validation of religious dogmas by creating a jewish state (i understand that the intention may not have been a religious state, but a secular jewish state....... whatever that means. )

As a result wars erupted against Isreal, and Isreal was a great source of funds for the arms dealers of the world. I often wonder why a section of the United states wasnt carved out for them. Or parts of europe. But to place a jewish state near muslim countries, some of which helped win world war 2 for the allied powers (like saudi arabia). I dont know why anyone didnt see this comming.

And now modern day we have a large population that doesnt care about history, doesnt read about the acctual atrocities of one of the greatest human rights violations of our time (the giant prison called palestine), and wonders why the middle east is edgy about the west when people like pat robertson gets up to speak his radical christian dribble.

sorry... getting a bit upset myself there...

in any case this is my oppinion.
tell me what you think! and thank you for your time :)

[Big ned]

I agree that Israel is not a purely religious state, however following its creation after world war 2 its hard to differentiate whether the creation of the state was because of religious historical validation or some other motive.

I would acctualy love to go to israel and see first hand whats going on in the universities, however i have not had a chance to fully research.

As for having an active temple, look at the efforts going forward to do this. There is allready capital mounting as well as supplies being bought to reinstate the temple. the most prominent of these groups is: Revava. These guys are acctualy trying to complete the "prophecy" of the end of days.

Note these are radical groups and i by no means call the majority of the population there under the same cloth as the radicals. I am merely pointing out the similarities in all three of the abrahamic branch offs.

Something i would like to know and maybe you guys have some info on this. What is the difference between a "secular zionist state" and a "religious state"?

Brigham Young University has a study abroad section of their university in Israel. They are not allowed to proselyte while there, but if someone approaches them and asks them questions, they are allowed to teach based on the persons curiosity. Far cry from what happens in Islam... the same situation would result in death for both of the participants.

[BVulgaris]

horrifically false my friend and i would want to persuade you to read up on the history of islam as well as the history of the leaders that have touted the crescent moon (islam) through out history. The philosophies are dedicated to education and full devotion to god's work. The evolution of the Jihad had more to do with historical interpretation from saudi tribes united under Ibn Saud and many saudi schollars such as Sayyid Qutb. The original interpretation of the jihad had more to do with the struggle to solve humanitarian crises in the world through education, learning, acceptance, etc.

But as many religions around the world, the leaders also eventually took up arms and wielded power like a warlord for conquest. Let us not forget the inquisition and witchhunts for the intellects in europe. Many times the name of (a) god is used as the authority to commit mass atrocities that create echos in peoples minds for generations.

The cycle of hatred continues in all 3 of the brother religions of Abraham.

But you are wrong to believe that Muslims are any less willing to learn, or to teach peace as the other 2 religions of the god of Abraham.

[unclemarty]

The only glimmer of hope regarding Islam comes from those few honest, courageous muslims who
- are not afraid to openly accept the historical facts behind the origin of their faith,
- are willing to accept the undeniable and inseparable historical place Israel & Jerusalem holds in Jewish history
- are not afraid to stand up, speak out against, and actively resist the more violently motivated Jihadists in their midst.

Unfortunately for all muslims these brave folks appear to be few. There must be many more who share their clear perspective but the fear or reprisal at the hand of the vicious, cause them to remain silent. And that fearfull silence only serves to reinforce, in the casual observer, the notion that the vast majority of Islam is deeply intrenched in the dubious ambitions of the cruel and ruthless. Sadly, the only fearlessly outspoken muslims worldwide seem to be the brazen ones who openly declare their true intentions towards the "infidel" and brutaly threaten anyone who dares disagree with submission to their "sword". Equaly sad; the majority of apparantly decent, peaceloving muslims still hold a deep seeded perception of the world, "infidels", and Jews that's been poisoned by the remnants from generations of warped indoctrination.

care about history...

read up on the history...

What a great idea!
I would have enjoyed discussing certain related topics with an honest, historicaly educated muslim in order to gain some valuable insights, but your posts here and elsewhere are so full of the usual holes, assumptions, historical misconceptions and superficial learning, that i've concluded it would become little more than yet another tediously futile excercise in brick-wall head bashing.

[hellomynameis]

Many divorce themselves from islam some what because of the history of its more extreme elements.

...

These are the things in islam (a muslim is "one who submits to god") which are the darker side of it's ministry. But there are atrocities and radicals in ALL religions. I have not seen any religion, save Buddhism, that has not committed similar atrocities in the name of thier god(s) and way of life.

...

tell me what you think! and thank you for your time :)

Your posts are always appreciated (by me, at least.)

I still have to wonder if it isn't something like compartmentalization, or simple rhetoric, that would lead someone to say they are a Muslim that does not adhere to Islam. It seems that claiming a new denomination would be appropriate (and it wouldn't be the first time a section of Islam split into a new denomination to rid themselves of extremism), or, that the associations of 'Islam' and 'Muslim' be put aside for a new approach like something akin to gnosticism.

Like I said, I could be wrong about this, there may be great line of reasoning that would allow someone to remain a Muslim and not adhere to Islam but from my point of view it is a linguistic nightmare, a hijacking of terminology.

All that aside, it's pretty superficial anyway, I think it is great that more and more people are taking a stand against extremism.

Cheers.

[unclemarty]

Your posts are always appreciated (by me, at least.)

Yes, his posts are to me what Big Ned's are to you .......:clueless:

I think it is great that more and more people are taking a stand against extremism.

did you mean more and more muslim people? If so could you give me examples.
I know of a few attempts by muslim moderates in the U.S. and Europe to organize demonstrations denouncing violent extemism in an effort to stand up and be recognized as 'true' muslims (peaceful compationate people of faith) - those efforts were not very well supported by the majority of local muslim organizations and never ended up getting off the ground enough to even get any media attention. in fact the organizers suffered death threats because of it.

Only in North Africa (Morocco or Tunesia) have I heard of demonstrations of that sort of sufficient scale as to send a clear message to the Jihad loving murderous extremist that they wouldn't be tolerated.

The Iranian example of protest IMO is misleading in that most of the demonstrators, although dissatisfied with their current nut-job rulers, are still in favour of his opponent who isn't all that much different.
either way, not exactly a great reason to be hopefull there.

[hellomynameis]

Yes, his posts are to me what Big Ned's are to you .......:clueless:

As far as I can tell, you've only engaged him once in conversation(your post above), correct me if I'm wrong as I only went 7/10 pages back into his post history. I would at least allow him a chance to respond and come to mutual understanding before I'd go to that comparison. However, you are absolutely entitled to your feelings and I respect that.

did you mean more and more muslim people? If so could you give me examples.

...

I meant people in general and what I've read of Wafa Sultan would make it seem that she's getting into the media with her message. Truthfully, I do not follow this topic closely and couldn't begin to make authoritative comments on the subject, although I keep checking in on the thread and pick up a news article re: the subject now and again.

Examples of Muslims taking a stand? I have only a couple anecdotal examples:

At the "Why Religion" conference on Feb 19, 2006, in Kelowna I heard the Islam representative take a strong stance against extremism. It is also my understanding that his community has been putting on conferences that deal with the subject since the early 90's (in BC), I do not know if they have continued.

Also, the three Muslims that I personally know are quite outspoken about their anti-extremism.

Like I said, it is very anecdotal.

Cheers

[unclemarty]

As far as I can tell, you've only engaged him once in conversation(your post above), correct me if I'm wrong as I only went 7/10 pages back into his post history. I would at least allow him a chance to respond and come to mutual understanding before I'd go to that comparison. However, you are absolutely entitled to your feelings and I respect that.

valid point.
My lack of response to BVulgaris so far is probably just pesimistic lazyness on my part.
When i read paragraph after paragraph of statements made with a certain degree of implied 'authority' on a variety of subjects, but in which i recognize so many of the opinions expressed require that massive volumes of facts be omitted, the effort involved to address each error seems exausting.

Examples of Muslims taking a stand? I have only a couple anecdotal examples...

I guess in my desire to find hope against the current Islamic threat of extremes, i would delight in any consistent, visible, unified and potent public show of strength from the so-called moderates against the dangerous extremists in our midst and elsewhere. I think that would go far to shift public opinion and hopefully be a step towards deeper trust, understanding and cooperation.
i can dream if i want to!!

What i do see, like you, are singular examples of strong individuals who are vocal and active within their community. The hope is that, as leaders from within, they could exert a certain strength of influence. but thats probably just a sweet dream also since its a sad reality that those willing to adopt the brutal use of force can usually only be dissuated by the threat of equal or greater force.

A couple interesting and encouraging articles i found on the topic of moderates resisting the more radical views of extremists are written by muslims (Free Muslims Coalition):

Public Debate on the Political Platform of the Planned Muslim Brotherhood Party in Egypt
http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=462
and
eminent Syrian philosopher Sadik Jalal Al-'Azm discussed the state of religious thought in the Muslim world
http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=487

They're quite long, but i found them worth a look at some of the things going on behind the scenes, as well as a glimps of what life under sharia rule would mean.

[hellomynameis]

As far as I can tell, you've only engaged him once in conversation(your post above), correct me if I'm wrong as I only went 7/10 pages back into his post history. I would at least allow him a chance to respond and come to mutual understanding before I'd go to that comparison. However, you are absolutely entitled to your feelings and I respect that.

valid point.
My lack of response so far is probably just pesimistic lazyness on my part.
When i read paragraph after paragraph of statements made with a certain degree of implied 'authority' on a variety of subjects, but in which i recognize so many of the opinions expressed required massive volumes of facts to be omited, the effort involved to address each error seems exausting.

That is why I look forward to the debate between you two, which appears to be eminent. With your unique perspectives and knowledge I hope to gleam lots of insight into the topic and I know neither of you will let the other get away with a indefensible point.

Examples of Muslims taking a stand? I have only a couple anecdotal examples...

I guess in my desire to find hope against the current Islamic threat of extremes, i would delight in any consistent, visible, unified and potent public show of strength from the so-called moderates against the dangerous extremists in our midst and elsewhere. I think that would go far to shift public opinion and hopefully be a step towards deeper trust, understanding and cooperation.
i can dream if i want to!!

Lol, I'll dream that dream with you!

What i do see, like you, are singular examples of strong individuals who are vocal and active within their community. The hope is that, as leaders from within, they could exert a certain strength of influence. but thats probably just a sweet dream also since its a sad reality that those willing to adopt the brutal use of force can usually only be dissuated by the threat of equal or greater force.

I have my own opinion on why religious moderates seem to be ineffectual in dealing with their radical/extremist brothers and sisters but it has little to do with the topic at hand in this thread. Perhaps I'll work together a couple essays and bring a condensed version back to the forum for discussion in its own thread. I'm sure we could generate more than a little traction re: that subject alone.

A couple interesting and encouraging articles i found on the topic of moderates resisting the more radical views of extremists are written by muslims (Free Muslims Coalition):

Public Debate on the Political Platform of the Planned Muslim Brotherhood Party in Egypt
http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=462
and
eminent Syrian philosopher Sadik Jalal Al-'Azm discussed the state of religious thought in the Muslim world
http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=487

They're quite long, but i found them worth a look at some of the things going on behind the scenes.

I'm off to bed, I will have a look at them when I can.

Cheers

[BVulgaris]

Though saddened by the assumptions by unclemarty, i never the less wish to continue this debate and would ask anyone to break into detail whenever they feel necessary, or ask for clairification.

- are willing to accept the undeniable and inseparable historical place Israel & Jerusalem holds in Jewish history

I would suggest that this comment does not acknowledge its history for other non abrahamic religions though they are not dominant in the region. I would also suggest that many other holy cities were distroyed and its inhabitants moved out never to reestablish their kingdoms again. I however share the viewpoint of the US schollar Noam Chomsky as far as the establishment of Israel after World War 2. I would love to have a rational discussion maybe in another thread as it would require a specific focus.

I would ask the question of how much you know about Islam? It seems that you summarize the beliefs of islam as it was interpreted by the bedowin cultures of Saudi Arabia when muslim schollars brought the religion into the desert. It was there the more extremist versions were born.
As for the outspoken, i would point to the views of Pat Robertson, a christian extremist, on the points of Haiti and the Neworleans Katrina incident. There are extremists everywhere and they are loud.

My mother was raised in a muslim country, my father was raised in Canada but born in England to an episcopalian (sp?) priest and a nurse that survived ww2 bombings taking care of children from the city of London. I have had numerous discussions over religion with both sides of the family. And have found that the majority of muslims, as far as global population, are peacefull loving people.

Just as there are extremists from all walks of life, these are an interest group of people expressing an extreme view.

By the way hellomynameis, by divorce themselves from islam, i meant convert or to leave the religion (sorry for the confusion, it was my terminology that was at fault). Which for some (including where my mother is from) is an offense that requires your family to disown you and your neighbors to kill you. However this is the traditional interpretation in that area which was fueled by religious reaction to the invasion of the Japanese in WW2 (Malaysia) (im not saying the tradition was because of the japanese, let me clarify that i mean the enforcement in the community became more severe). The reaction of the people was to cling to their traditional beliefs and to expunge any foreign influences. Understandable in some ways as this is a normal psycological response to such horrific scenes of human rights violations as the invading japanese caused... let me also clarify that i do not hate the japanese (just trying not to be misunderstood on here).

My mother is a convert and she is not disowned, i am not killed in the community that my mothers side of the family lives in (though there are other communities in the world that would), and infact the grandparents dont really care that we do not practice islam. But for many years Malaysia has had very extremist influences as has Singapore which is now an incredibly secular city state.

As for the commentary on muslims standing up and denouncing extremism. Even the non extremists are afraid of the extremists! Its very hard to be a faithfull muslim these days because you are often a target by both sides. Some times it takes leaders, singular persons speaking out and showing others that interest groups can be formed. Even Christianity had a reformation! in some cases in some countries this is whats going on now. The protestant reformation was a movement to get everyone to read the bible and stop allowing church organizations to interpret for them (this is the famous story of Martin Luther getting angry over the bible being chained to the wall and not allowed in the hands of the people. As a result there are more liberal interpretations of the bible and more religious freedoms in christian based communities.

[Homeownertoo]

... But as many religions around the world, the (Islamic) leaders also eventually took up arms and wielded power like a warlord for conquest.

A gross distortion of history. Mohammed, the first leader, was a warlord who took up arms and wielded power for conquest, as did his followers and successors. Please do not distort history to attempt to show that Islam was a peaceful movement from the outset. It was not. In fact, its inaugural act was the slaughter and enslavement of the Jewish residents of Medina, the very Jews who had welcomed M to their community after he had been banished from Mecca.

Let us not forget the inquisition and witchhunts for the intellects in europe.

In no way can you equate the violencde of the inquisition with the many centuries of bloodlust between shias and sunnis or the with the ongoing conflict between muslim-dominated nations with their neighbours worldwide. Do you even know what the inquisition was or do you have the typical comic-book impression of it.

The cycle of hatred continues in all 3 of the brother religions of Abraham.

At least make some effort to qualify what you mean by this alleged cycle of hatred. This statement is worse than meaningless; it is defamatory against Christians and Jews today and, by token, exculpatory toward those responsible for the ongoing hatred.

But you are wrong to believe that Muslims are any less willing to learn, or to teach peace as the other 2 religions of the god of Abraham.

Another distortion of the relations between the Abrahamic religions. Judaism is not a religion of conquest or conversion. Christianity has for quite some time abandoned any notion of expanding its flock through conquest or dhimmification of non-believers. Only Islam holds to the concept of dar al Islam and dar al harb, and only Islam does not accept that any person or nation can revert from Islam to another religion, or that criticism of Islam or M by any person is blasphemy.

[Homeownertoo]

The only glimmer of hope regarding Islam comes from those few honest, courageous muslims who
- are not afraid to openly accept the historical facts behind the origin of their faith,
- are willing to accept the undeniable and inseparable historical place Israel & Jerusalem holds in Jewish history
- are not afraid to stand up, speak out against, and actively resist the more violently motivated Jihadists in their midst.

Unfortunately for all muslims these brave folks appear to be few. There must be many more who share their clear perspective but the fear or reprisal at the hand of the vicious, cause them to remain silent. And that fearfull silence only serves to reinforce, in the casual observer, the notion that the vast majority of Islam is deeply intrenched in the dubious ambitions of the cruel and ruthless. Sadly, the only fearlessly outspoken muslims worldwide seem to be the brazen ones who openly declare their true intentions towards the "infidel" and brutaly threaten anyone who dares disagree with submission to their "sword". Equaly sad; the majority of apparantly decent, peaceloving muslims still hold a deep seeded perception of the world, "infidels", and Jews that's been poisoned by the remnants from generations of warped indoctrination.

Well put, Marty. The rest of your posting was bang on, too.