Religion or more?

[BVulgaris]

sorry, that last quote from you homeownerto, i couldnt get the one in the back not to quote but if you read my answer i think theres enough to show what im addressing.

[Homeownertoo]

I really wish you would read what I wrote rather than what you wished I had written. My reasoning made no mention and had nothing to do with the Holocaust. I have only so much patience with people who put words in my mouth.

Response: i appologise if that is what i did. I retract my statement. What did you mean?

What I meant, as a more careful reading of what I wrote makes clear, is that the Jews' right to a homeland in the mideast was no different from the rights of the various Arab 'nations' (Lebanese, Jordanians [palestinians, actually], Syrians, Iraqis, etc.) to their own homelands -- it derived from their long-time presence within the detritus of the Ottoman empire, a point recognized by Britain and France as early as 1916.

Zionism, which increased the flow of Jews to Palestine, and the Holocaust (and pogroms of eastern Europe and the muslim world), which made patently clear that Jewish survival depended not on the goodwill of other peoples but on their having a homeland of their own, only added to the urgency of created a Jewish homeland.

[BVulgaris]

I dont mean to sound dense, but what gave the jewish people preference over those that lived there?

[Mr Danksworth]

what gave the jewish people preference over those that lived there?

Absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned. And their behavior since they got the land has been less than stellar.

[Homeownertoo]

I dont mean to sound dense, but what gave the jewish people preference over those that lived there?

Frankly, this issue has been amply addressed in other forums and the answers to your argumentatively framed question are widely available on the Internet.

BTW, you have jumbled several issues into one badly worded question and need to untangle them before they can be addressed individually.

Also, you have ignored the fact that the drawing of national borders everywhere involves the movement of peoples -- millions of them since WW2 in Europe, Asia and Africa. In only one instance worldwide has that process not come to resolution -- in Palestine, and there this failure is due solely to the deliberate intransigence of the Arabic nations despite the massive efforts of the global community. And you have ignored the fact that Arabs were not pushed off 'their' land (they now make up 20% of Israel's population and have full rights of citizenship); rather, it was Jews in Arabic lands who were dispossessed and subjected to pogroms and, finally, kicked out. Please pay closer attention to facts in future.

[Homeownertoo]

what gave the jewish people preference over those that lived there?

Absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned. And their behavior since they got the land has been less than stellar.

There's nothing like a good, informed opinion. Too bad this is not one of them. Maybe it has escaped your attention that these forums are intended for an exchange of information, questions and informed views so that the sum of knowledge actually increases, not for ignorant prejudice that subtracts from the sum of knowledge.

[unclemarty]

Although it seems a discussion about the true nature of Islam can't help but be derailed by the mention of Judaism, ISRAEL and the Jews, i will also be pasting this in the tic...toc...Israel thread:

... what gave the jewish people preference over those that lived there?

"...over those that lived there?"

Here you have but one example of the many you've provided that has given weight to my "assumtions".

Those few little words illustrate another widespread modern misconception that those that lived there didn't include a large number of communities with a significant combined population that had remained Jewish since the dismantling of Israel as a political entity by the romans and subsequent conquering nations. Significant enough that it could/would not be dismissed during the partition process, in fact if you care to do some impartial research you'd find that due to a number of political and economic factors, the process of alocating the portion of land for the jews itself ended up giving blatent preference to the arab population that ALSO lived there.

...And their behavior since they got the land has been less than stellar.

1948 - 1956 - 1967 - 1973 ... Many honest arabs have adamantly stated their absolute bewilderment at the overall fair, humane, and generous treatment they received at the hands of their triumphant Jewish counterparts, since they knew full well the vicious treatment they held in store for any of the surviving jewish population had the outcome of any of the arab instigated invasion efforts been succesfull.

I think the observations and testimonies coming from those arab witnesses who actually lived in any of the areas that came under Israeli control following the many defensive wars Israel fought, carry far greater weight than the superficial impressions held by those with an incomplete, indifferent or biased understanding.

[westsidebud]

You ignore the right of Jews

you ignore the right of everyone that is not a jew

Perhaps there are some forums here more suitable to your limited wit and knowledge. I recommend you seek them out and inflict what minor capacity you have for such on those forums, and leave the serious topics to people more capable of making a contribution. Operating within your limits might even enable you to develop some capacity for self-awareness.

lol truth hurts dont it lol. this thread you started could be considered hate speech, you should tread lightly

[Homeownertoo]

You ignore the right of Jews

you ignore the right of everyone that is not a jew

Perhaps there are some forums here more suitable to your limited wit and knowledge. I recommend you seek them out and inflict what minor capacity you have for such on those forums, and leave the serious topics to people more capable of making a contribution. Operating within your limits might even enable you to develop some capacity for self-awareness.

lol truth hurts dont it lol.

Sorry for hurting you.

this thread you started could be considered hate speech, you should tread lightly

In today's Canada, yes, that is possible. I would wear it as a badge of honour. But I guess I'll have to wait till HRCs get the power to censor the Internet.
Edit: Oops, they already have it.

[BVulgaris]

on the question of israeli homeland, i think maybe a separate thread is needed. I am not an expert in the issue and will review some of the oppinions, and find the facts to support them (this is just a result of this discussion lacking sources on both sides other than the interesting one about the german arab discussions of alliance).

My final comment on the thread's main topic is that though the leaders of muslim nations are carrying forward very distructive policies, I believe the majority of the population are not on board. There are extremists everywhere and i believe that a main problem is there is poor representation of the will of the people. If this could be overcome, and i agree with education, what i consider this cycle of hatred can end for all sides. I may comment further when i have the time to take up a source based discussion.

Thank you very much for your time, and thank you very much for your debating.

[BVulgaris]

a quick reply to unclemarty, and some to homeownerto. I did not say the arabs were kicked out. I am asking was it a vote of the demographic (representative).

This part of the topic was brought forward due to the question of anti jewish sentiments created by past issues vs current issues.

I agree its a bit of a web and not an organized debate, however i feel that all these issues make up a point of perception between various sides of this debate.

If we are arguing simply on the question of the jihadist movement, it is not my oppinion that such extremist interpretations is how the majority of muslims act in thier daily lives. The Islamist political machines are a different matter in my oppinion.

[Homeownertoo]

a quick reply to unclemarty, and some to homeownerto. I did not say the arabs were kicked out. I am asking was it a vote of the demographic (representative).

This part of the topic was brought forward due to the question of anti jewish sentiments created by past issues vs current issues.

I agree its a bit of a web and not an organized debate, however i feel that all these issues make up a point of perception between various sides of this debate.

If we are arguing simply on the question of the jihadist movement, it is not my oppinion that such extremist interpretations is how the majority of muslims act in thier daily lives. The Islamist political machines are a different matter in my oppinion.

How the majority of muslims act in their daily lives is not at issue. Most, I'm sure, just want to get on with their lives with as little outside interference as possible. The issue raised in the original posting has to do with the interaction of western and Islamic civilizations. And jihad, whatever form it takes, is only a small part of this issue.

As for 1947, it, like all other border realignments and the emergence of new nations in the 20th century, was not about local votes, it was a decision rendered by the global community or some part of it. And there is probably no instance that satisfied everyone. But I believe in every other case, there was, eventually, at least grudging acceptance of each new entity that was created. Interestingly, the only complete failures I can think of offhand, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, were due to the artificial combining of different ethnic groups in one state. That offers some idea of the plausibility of forcing Jews and Palestinians into one state from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean -- like two scorpions in a bottle.

[BVulgaris]

clash of civilizations theory?

i thought the original post was about a quote questioning loyalties of mulsims in secular countries?

[Homeownertoo]

clash of civilizations theory?

i thought the original post was about a quote questioning loyalties of mulsims in secular countries?

As you stated yourself, "its a bit of a web and not an organized debate."
But yes, a clash of the Jewish and Arabic civilizations (with apologies to Samuel Huntington).

[unclemarty]

One more small muslim voice denouncing radical islam publicly and unambiguously.

10 Questions liberals must ask themselves - http://www.tawfikhamid.com/news/
(then scroll down a bit to his Monday, July 6, 2009 post)