The emergent church

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fluffy
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:And why do traditional churches need to change?


There is a saying that goes "If nothing changes, nothing changes."

If traditional churches are losing members under current conditions why would anyone expect the trend to change if nothing else changes ? If they are content to fade away to obscurity then the best strategy to accomplish that would be to do nothing new or different wouldn't you think ? The emerging churches, by offering a different approach to religion than their predecessors, are growing in numbers.
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concernie
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Re: The emergent church

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fluffy wrote:There is a saying that goes "If nothing changes, nothing changes."

If traditional churches are losing members under current conditions why would anyone expect the trend to change if nothing else changes ? If they are content to fade away to obscurity then the best strategy to accomplish that would be to do nothing new or different wouldn't you think ? The emerging churches, by offering a different approach to religion than their predecessors, are growing in numbers.


An equally valid suggestion would be that people need to change, not the Church. It's not so much that the Church is fading as Western Civilization is fading. The Emergent Church is not merely a different approach. It's a completely different belief system. It is not Christianity.
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:An equally valid suggestion would be that people need to change, not the Church. It's not so much that the Church is fading as Western Civilization is fading. The Emergent Church is not merely a different approach. It's a completely different belief system. It is not Christianity.


"Fading" is a rather subjective term, indicative of a biased outlook to be sure. Western Civilization is definitely moving somewhere in a great hurry, whether that's good or a bad is open for discussion. The fact remains that the traditional religions have not felt a need to keep pace with the changes and that choice is coming back to haunt them in the form of a shrinking membership. The newer religions are obviously giving their membership something that the old guard isn't, something they are finding more to their tastes. If those desires are met by a "completely different belief system" then so be it. Life is change, it always has been, but that change is coming at a greater pace today than ever before. I don't see it as a particularly realistic viewpoint that society needs to change to suit the wishes of the church, that would be a difficult proposition to sell at the very least.

It would be interesting to research just where the people leaving the traditional churches are going, and where those joining the new churches are coming from. I wonder if it's the same people?
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concernie
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Re: The emergent church

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fluffy wrote:"Fading" is a rather subjective term, indicative of a biased outlook to be sure. Western Civilization is definitely moving somewhere in a great hurry, whether that's good or a bad is open for discussion. The fact remains that the traditional religions have not felt a need to keep pace with the changes and that choice is coming back to haunt them in the form of a shrinking membership. The newer religions are obviously giving their membership something that the old guard isn't, something they are finding more to their tastes. If those desires are met by a "completely different belief system" then so be it. Life is change, it always has been, but that change is coming at a greater pace today than ever before. I don't see it as a particularly realistic viewpoint that society needs to change to suit the wishes of the church, that would be a difficult proposition to sell at the very least.


What's more popular does not connote superiority. The same is true of the battle for the Christian mind between orthodoxy and apostasy.

It would be interesting to research just where the people leaving the traditional churches are going, and where those joining the new churches are coming from. I wonder if it's the same people?


Mostof the people leaving churches of any kind are dropping Christianity (Western mores) altogether. This is not a problem just for traditional Christianity but for society in general. The new mores of Western nations are more akin to cultural Marxism.
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:Mostof the people leaving churches of any kind are dropping Christianity (Western mores) altogether. This is not a problem just for traditional Christianity but for society in general. The new mores of Western nations are more akin to cultural Marxism.

Is it a problem for society or is it society that is just changing? Change is only a problem *bleep* those who are incapable of or refuse to change. The problem you are talking about seems to be yours and your religion's, not anybody else's. Trying to stand still in a flowing stream is impossible. The rushing water will cause the gravel under your feet to slip away and eventually you will be swept away. Some people drown and others learn to swim.
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:What's more popular does not connote superiority.


"Superiority" is a decision for the individual, and the individuals seem to be choosing the newer churches over the old. The "right and wrong" of that is not for us to decide any further than how we approach the decision individually, I'm just wondering if the traditional churches are content to go with the flow ?
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Re: The emergent church

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cliffy1 wrote:Change is only a problem *bleep* those who are incapable of or refuse to change. The problem you are talking about seems to be yours and your religion's, not anybody else's. Trying to stand still in a flowing stream is impossible. The rushing water will cause the gravel under your feet to slip away and eventually you will be swept away. Some people drown and others learn to swim.


Your talking about change as if it were some law. Who says the traditional church has to change?

fluffy wrote:"Superiority" is a decision for the individual, and the individuals seem to be choosing the newer churches over the old. The "right and wrong" of that is not for us to decide any further than how we approach the decision individually, I'm just wondering if the traditional churches are content to go with the flow ?


Again with your hyper-relativism. There are superior and inferior absolutes. For example, mankind is superior to the animal race, just as truth is superior to lies. "Going with the flow" equates to apostasy. Again, this is a somewhat veiled attempt at forcing traditional Christians to go against their conscience.
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:There are superior and inferior absolutes.

What are some that your religion teaches?
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:"Going with the flow" equates to apostasy. Again, this is a somewhat veiled attempt at forcing traditional Christians to go against their conscience.


I have said repeatedly that I believe what an individual chooses to believe in is his/her own business and nobody else's, nobody is asking Christians to abandon their faith. Yet the fact remains they are leaving of their own volition. You seem to be pretty closely connected to traditional Christianity, I'm asking if the current trends are of concern, if there are any plans to try and stem the exodus and if so what sort of strategy do you think would be best employed ? This is not a condemnation of traditional Christianity, it is an observation of what is going on and some questions that result from that.
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Re: The emergent church

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fluffy wrote:I have said repeatedly that I believe what an individual chooses to believe in is his/her own business and nobody else's, nobody is asking Christians to abandon their faith. Yet the fact remains they are leaving of their own volition. You seem to be pretty closely connected to traditional Christianity, I'm asking if the current trends are of concern, if there are any plans to try and stem the exodus and if so what sort of strategy do you think would be best employed ? This is not a condemnation of traditional Christianity, it is an observation of what is going on and some questions that result from that.


Let's get one thing clear. Churches like the Emergent Church are concerned primarily with expansion and membership. The traditional church is concerned with providing for the community, whatever it needs, be it spiritual direction or food, clothing, and shelter for the needy. Obviously then, a decline in membership is not so much a concern, especially seeing that parishioners are aware of the true reasons for the decline, namely cultural decline.
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:Obviously then, a decline in membership is not so much a concern, especially seeing that parishioners are aware of the true reasons for the decline, namely cultural decline.


But that doesn't account for the emerging churches' increase in membership unless you equate a move away from biblical orthodoxy as cultural decline. Many emerging churches still embrace the Bible as a terrific source for moral guidance, they are just moving away from the unswerving literal interpretation that the book was authored by God himself and therefore infallible.
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Re: The emergent church

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Brother Concernie, why do you ignore my legitimate questions? How the times have changed when the pious persecutors of the past, today hide their beliefs in secrecy in shame of their own religion. No doubt, it would be a hard position to recruit from.
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Re: The emergent church

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I can understand the growing popularity of the emerging churches in that they draw from a number of sources for their theology, sources both traditional and contemporary, as well as eastern and western. This takes religion away from the "one size fits all" approach and gives the participants the ability to "design" a faith that suits their wants and needs. I can also understand how an approach such as this would bug the heck out of the more orthodox religions whose approach has always been one steeped in traditional ritual handed down for centuries coupled with a very narrow view of biblical interpretation. Lots of people like that degree of discipline, but on the same token, people in general are much more conscious these days of just where they can make choices for themselves and when those choices are being made for them.
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concernie
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Re: The emergent church

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Sneaksuit wrote:Brother Concernie, why do you ignore my legitimate questions? How the times have changed when the pious persecutors of the past, today hide their beliefs in secrecy in shame of their own religion. No doubt, it would be a hard position to recruit from.


What question? About which absolutes Christianity teaches? You don't know?

fluffy wrote:
But that doesn't account for the emerging churches' increase in membership unless you equate a move away from biblical orthodoxy as cultural decline. Many emerging churches still embrace the Bible as a terrific source for moral guidance, they are just moving away from the unswerving literal interpretation that the book was authored by God himself and therefore infallible.


A lot more than that. They are discarding the fundamentals. ONce you start saying that all ways lead to "God" whomever he is, you no longer have Christianity but something else.

You are speaking as if the traditional Church is standing by in jealousy and wonder over how they can become like the liberal churches and increase membership. The traditional Church is not perplexed with what is going on. The Bible prophesied of a great apostasy. The liberal churches are scorned in the traditional Church, considered heretical. So, obviously, the traditional Church isn't going to sell out merely to gain more members. Different priorities, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

I don't have a problem with the Emergent Church as some New Age concept. I have a problem with it pretending to be Christian.
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Re: The emergent church

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concernie wrote:What question? About which absolutes Christianity teaches? You don't know?

Please list some absolutes of your version of Christianity along with the "heretical" interpretations of the emergent church.

concernie wrote:I don't have a problem with the Emergent Church as some New Age concept. I have a problem with it pretending to be Christian.

How can one argue the emergent church is not Christian when its attitude is more Jesus-like?

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