Mormons

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Big ned
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Re: Mormons

Post by Big ned »

Don Pepe
No, this is not the teaching of the church. Could it happen in individual families? Sure, but that isn't how the church teaches you treat people in your family. I have two sisters that have left the church and they are at all our family functions. I think more likely it is people who leave the church don't want to be around people that are still living the standards taught by the church and have a tendency to avoid such.

We belief the family unit to be the one eternal unit. When a family member leaves, it makes us sad and we hope one day they will return. Alienating the hardly expedites that process.
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Born_again
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Re: Mormons

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I'll willingly concede to Big ned that the LDS Church does place an enormous amount of emphasis on the family unit. I was brought up as a Momon and most of my memories are of one big family type setting between the 30 or so families in that commune(and no physical child abuse either!). Children were readily 'swapped' around between families and I barely could discern when I was with my own family or another(Not quite true, as we were by far the poorest of them all). Just a pity that they had to brainwash us though, albeit in a 'nice' way. Oh, and I was always jealous of outsiders because Coke was forbidden.
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Big ned
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Re: Mormons

Post by Big ned »

You were not brought up mormon then, you are as misinformed as bcbud. I'm pretty sure you realize you are spreading misinformation by this point and it really isn't funny or cute.

For those unfamiliar with the LDS church, they do not live in communes and coke is not banned. He is trying to be funny and portray the LDS church to a fundamentalist wacky break away group.
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Born_again
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Re: Mormons

Post by Born_again »

You are wrong, Big ned, very wrong. I get the feeling that you have become uncomfortable with the realisation that I was in fact part of the Church of LDS. I can't change my history, but you can most certainly change your mind.

BTW, sarsaparilla was also off the list, as well as anything that contained caffeine!
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Big ned
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Re: Mormons

Post by Big ned »

You may have been part of the LDS church, but you are lying about everything else. No one in the LDS community lives in compounds and there is nothing stating that caffeinated beverages are against the LDS health code. Since we don't drink coffee, some members have gone an extra step and said that they will not drink caffeinated beverages of any kind.. kind of the spirit Vs. the letter of the law.

So if you are going to spread misinformation, at least own up to it when you are busted.
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Mr Danksworth
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Re: Mormons

Post by Mr Danksworth »

Surely you aren't calling him a liar just because his experience with mor(m)onism doesn't match yours?
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Born_again
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Re: Mormons

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LOL I'm just letting him dig his own grave. The more I listen to Big ned's apologetics the harder it is for me(as an ex-Mormon) to believe that he has had any ties to the CofLDS at all. Have you noticed how he has taken "commune" to be "compound" in the space of 2 posts? I'm guessing it will evolve into "concentration camp" for his 3rd post since?
As for his refusal to accept that caffeine was forbidden within my Ward, well I would invite anybody to have a look here, then make up their own minds. Our houses were completely devoid of anything that contained caffeine. It was forbidden!

What I suspect is happening here is that Big ned is developing one of those insane jealousies that some theists harbour for others practising their Faith with more piety than they do themselves. It highlights their own 'shortcomings', and leads to self-flagellating and other abusive tendencies towards others. What makes it worse for them is when that person then rejects that Faith and becomes an Atheist!!!!*gasp* That's understandable I suppose, given their predispositions.

Furthermore, I'd like to publicly challenge Big ned to partake in a 6-way Skype conference call to both of my parents (and optionally, 2 of my brothers), where he can freely ask about our Mormon heritage. Failing that, he can choose to wait until they are both in Canada again later this year and we'll go for a cup of coffee; or maybe even a Coke ;-).
All I stipulate is that you make an appropriate public apology once you have confirmed that I was brought up in a rather fundamental/strict Mormon commune. Easy peasy lemon squeezy!

It's up to you Big ned, the PM button is over there <-------
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Big ned
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Re: Mormons

Post by Big ned »

I don't have to PM anything. I have never denied you may have been brought up Mormon. Show me where I said that. Why would it make me uncomfortable? You obviously didn't understand the doctrine very well if you thought caffeine is outlawed by the church. If you can show me anywhere in official LDS doctrine where caffeinated pop is against the word of wisdom, I will bow down at your feet and apologize. Your family may not have had caffeine in the house, but there are plenty of LDS families that are in full standing in the church that do, so don't try and make it look like it is official lds doctrine, because it is not.

You can PM me after you peruse the official scripture that makes up the word of wisdom.
It is section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants..you can find it under lds.org the scriptures heading. One of the prophets came out and clarified that hot drinks refer to tea and coffee. Nothing has ever been said about caffeinated beverages.

Thank you for clarifying that you were in a community that may have been predominantly LDS.... Community and commune are not the same thing by the way.

Waiting with baited breath for your admittance of error.
Big ned
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Re: Mormons

Post by Big ned »

By the way, did you even read the concluding paragraph? Let me post it for you incase you just read the opening and thought you had big ned in a gotcha moment.

Cola Drinks and Caffeine

Part 1: What is the LDS Church's stand on caffeine, cola drinks, and chocolate?



More of this Feature
• Cola Drinks and Caffeine
• Common Sources of Caffeine
• Caffeine and Your Health






Related Resources
• Is Decaff Coffee and Non Alcoholic Beer Okay?
• Lesson and Talk Index
• LDS Basic Beliefs
• LDS Glossary





From Other Guides
• Mental Health: Caffeine Allergy
• Pregnancy: Caffeine and Miscarriages





Elsewhere on the Web
• Is the Church against cola drinks? (Scroll Down)
• Caffeine-The Subtle Addiction





If you're new to the Church or been a lifetime member I'm sure you've heard the cola/caffeine debate over and over. Some say to keep the Word of Wisdom you shouldn't drink cola drinks, others say it doesn't matter. So what's the Church's stand on cola drinks? Here you'll find what the LDS Church has published about cola drinks, caffeine, and the Word of Wisdom.

In 1975 The New Era's Question/Answer section asked, "Is it against Church standards to drink cola beverages or any other beverage containing caffeine?" Bishop H. Burke Peterson, who was the First Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric at the time answered:

"'And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man.' (D&C 89:10)

"We should notice the word wholesome and always consider the things that we take into our body as to whether they are wholesome or not. The scripture continues, 'All these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.' (D&C 89:11) Consider the word prudence. Would eating a whole apple pie or a cake or watermelon at one sitting be prudent? It is contrary to the principles embodied in the Word of Wisdom to take an excess of anything into our bodies.

"Two of the tests we can employ as we question the use of any food or beverage are: Is it wholesome? Is it prudent? As we know, some of us need more rest than others. These same principles imply that we should not tax our bodies beyond good judgment. Finally, remember that the Lord has counseled:

'For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.' (D&C 58:26)

"We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used." ("Q&A: Questions and Answers," New Era, Oct. 1975, 34 NOTE: Scroll down to Bishop Peterson's question/answer section about cola drinks.)

Is the above quote still valid since it was published over 25 years ago? Here's what the Ensign printed about caffeine and cola drinks in 1988:

"Apparently, the potency of caffeine is related to body weight. To a 150-pound adult, 'a cup of instant coffee or a can of cola beverage could give about 1 mg caffeine per kilogram of body weight. In a very young child, a cup of chocolate or a candy bar would give the same proportion of stimulant to body weight. When this child drinks a can of cola, … caffeine intake is comparable to an adult drinking four cups of instant coffee. … Restlessness, irritability, sleeplessness, and nervousness are some of the symptoms.'

"According to a statement in the Priesthood Bulletin of February 1972 (volume 8, number 1), 'There has been no official interpretation of [the] Word of Wisdom except that which was given by the Brethren in the very early days of the Church when it was declared that ‘hot drinks’ meant tea and coffee.

'With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.'" (Clifford J. Stratton, "Caffeine—The Subtle Addiction," Ensign, June 1988, 60)

So does this mean we shouldn't drink cola drinks? I think we need to be wise in our choice of foods and drinks. To obey the Word of Wisdom we can't use tobacco, drink coffee or tea, or use drugs, but we must individually decide for everything else. We know what the scriptures say, what the Church's Council is, and we must choose. If we feel we wouldn't be obeying the Word of Wisdom by drinking cola drinks, then don't drink them, if we feel that we shouldn't eat a chocolate bar or other dessert every day then don't do it and you will be blessed. If we become addicted to a substance we are being controlled by the substance and are not obeying the Word of Wisdom.

I believe drinking a cola drink now and then just as eating a chocolate bar every once in awhile is fine. Drinking a cola drink or eating a chocolate bar every day would not be healthy and in my opinion if I did this I would not be obeying the Word of Wisdom, but that would be my opinion and my choice, that would affect me and no one else.

THe church teaches moderation in all things including meat and food in general. There are many members that drink energy drinks and caffeinated beverages that go to the temple. Sorry BA.. you are wrong on this and your own article proves it.
bcbudrockz69
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Re: Mormons

Post by bcbudrockz69 »

im still waiting to have it expained from a mormon person, how plural marriages came to be accepted and why it was okay to do that, or why it was encouraged?
Big ned
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Re: Mormons

Post by Big ned »

If you read the Bible carefully, there are several times when God has sanctioned plural marriage. Usually it is to "bring up a righteous people". There are several factors in the LDS history that would make polygamy beneficial to them. Take for example the extermination law and the constant attacks by mobs that the saints endured... there were many families that had a mother and children, but no father due to the constant murdering and plundering that went on. It is estimated that only about 5% of the LDS male population practised polygamy and it was mostly to take care of Fatherless families. They were called by the prophet to accept the callings, it wasn't a free-for-all that some make it out to be. Can you image going from Missouri to Utah as a single mom with several young children and no father to take care of you?

Now I know you will fiind something to mock in the explanation, but I am prepared for that.

Also, by point of explanation, people frequently ask why they continued practising polygamy after it was officially denounced by the church. The reason should be obvious... there were no more polygamous marriages sanctioned, but you have already existing families that you can't just break up because the government says so. Many of those families moved to southern alberta and were key in digging the canal system that serves the southern alberta farmers so well today.

What happened to BA? Did he call his family and find out that they were being regulated on the family level rather than the church level?
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coffeeFreak
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Re: Mormons

Post by coffeeFreak »

Big ned wrote:If you read the Bible carefully, there are several times when God has sanctioned plural marriage. Usually it is to "bring up a righteous people". There are several factors in the LDS history that would make polygamy beneficial to them. Take for example the extermination law and the constant attacks by mobs that the saints endured... there were many families that had a mother and children, but no father due to the constant murdering and plundering that went on. It is estimated that only about 5% of the LDS male population practised polygamy and it was mostly to take care of Fatherless families. They were called by the prophet to accept the callings, it wasn't a free-for-all that some make it out to be. Can you image going from Missouri to Utah as a single mom with several young children and no father to take care of you?

Now I know you will fiind something to mock in the explanation, but I am prepared for that.

Also, by point of explanation, people frequently ask why they continued practising polygamy after it was officially denounced by the church. The reason should be obvious... there were no more polygamous marriages sanctioned, but you have already existing families that you can't just break up because the government says so. Many of those families moved to southern alberta and were key in digging the canal system that serves the southern alberta farmers so well today.

What happened to BA? Did he call his family and find out that they were being regulated on the family level rather than the church level?


Not sure what bible you are referring to because nowhere in the New Testament does God sanction "plural" marriage.
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Glacier
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Re: Mormons

Post by Glacier »

coffeeFreak wrote:Not sure what bible you are referring to because nowhere in the New Testament does God sanction "plural" marriage.

Nor did he in the Old Testament.
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grammafreddy
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Re: Mormons

Post by grammafreddy »

Big ned wrote:
Also, by point of explanation, people frequently ask why they continued practising polygamy after it was officially denounced by the church. The reason should be obvious... there were no more polygamous marriages sanctioned, but you have already existing families that you can't just break up because the government says so. Many of those families moved to southern alberta and were key in digging the canal system that serves the southern alberta farmers so well today.



What was the date the LDS church denounced polygamy?

Was that before or after Mr Blackmore and friends married their most recent 14 year old wives they smuggled across the border?
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Born_again
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Re: Mormons

Post by Born_again »

Big ned wrote:What happened to BA? Did he call his family and find out that they were being regulated on the family level rather than the church level?

LOL As it happens I did Skype my parents this morning, but I caffeine wasn't the topic of conversation. Neither was Mormonism, as I believe my mother has been tortured enough by the foibles of her past.
I posted that letter knowing full well that you would instantly try to latch onto it as some sort of face-saver; a lifeline as such. I honestly hoped that you would because it has set a precedent that will allow us to move on to bigger and better things, and knowing that you have just tied your hands you will have very little wiggle room with which to operate. More on that later.

Let's compare this.....

"We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used." ("Q&A: Questions and Answers," New Era, Oct. 1975, 34


and this......

'With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.'" (Clifford J. Stratton, "Caffeine—The Subtle Addiction," Ensign, June 1988, 60)


then this ......

Rachel Bruner wrote:So does this mean we shouldn't drink cola drinks? I think we need to be wise in our choice of foods and drinks. To obey the Word of Wisdom we can't use tobacco, drink coffee or tea, or use drugs, but we must individually decide for everything else. We know what the scriptures say, what the Church's Council is, and we must choose. If we feel we wouldn't be obeying the Word of Wisdom by drinking cola drinks, then don't drink them, if we feel that we shouldn't eat a chocolate bar or other dessert every day then don't do it and you will be blessed. If we become addicted to a substance we are being controlled by the substance and are not obeying the Word of Wisdom.

I believe drinking a cola drink now and then just as eating a chocolate bar every once in awhile is fine. Drinking a cola drink or eating a chocolate bar every day would not be healthy and in my opinion if I did this I would not be obeying the Word of Wisdom, but that would be my opinion and my choice, that would affect me and no one else.


FYI, Rachel Bruner was posting her personal opinion on http://www.about.com in response to some questions from the general public. No where does she imply that she is speaking from authority or by official consent.

You see, Big ned, you don't need the brains of an arch-bishop to work out that back in 1972 when my mother got snared by the LDS; probably on account of our abject poverty and the offer of 'free' accommodation within the commune, my bets are that she didn't have a clue as to what was or was not allowed--being an Anglican and all! Do you think she just used her wisdom of 3 weeks worth of new indoctrination to arbitrarily ban products containing caffeine in our house, or do you think she was 'advised'? Bit of a no-brainer, eh, Big ned.

You can try as you will to cloud the issue here with talk like, "there's nothing official" and all that crap, but you know damn well what likely happened in the real world, and I think everyone else(with at least half a brain) does too!

Anyway, as you have expressed great value in the "official word" of the cult, that is exactly what I will focus on in my next topic, and probably in great detail.
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