The Laws of Moses

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
User avatar
don_pepe
Newbie
Posts: 61
Joined: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:14 pm

The Laws of Moses

Post by don_pepe »

I've always been curious about why Christians don't follow the laws of the old testament. I know that Paul lets the Christians off the hook when it comes to the Jewish law but Jesus says:

Matthew 5:18-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Does this mean that Paul has more authority than Jesus?
User avatar
justmyopinion
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3343
Joined: Dec 2nd, 2009, 9:45 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by justmyopinion »

I find that most Christians don't even know all the commandments....if that's what you are refering to as the laws....that's actually one of the first questions I ask my Christian friends when they try and "convert" me.... :dyinglaughing:
User avatar
don_pepe
Newbie
Posts: 61
Joined: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:14 pm

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by don_pepe »

I'm referring to the silly ones like shell fish is an abomination, you can't wear clothes made of 2 different fabrics. It's a sin to plant a field with 2 different kinds of crops ext.

When it comes to stuff they agree with like homosexuality is an abomination they will definitely go back to them but for the most part they're ignored.
User avatar
justmyopinion
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3343
Joined: Dec 2nd, 2009, 9:45 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by justmyopinion »

Wow! See, no one has ever told me of those ones! LOL....tells you how much they are followed...

Sounds to me like people will only follow the ones they agree with
User avatar
Born_again
Guru
Posts: 5352
Joined: May 29th, 2008, 2:21 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by Born_again »

I think that firstly it is very important to include Verse 17 so that there is a fair pre-text to work from.
Jesus was basically paving the way for His "new covenant". He knew that it would be controversial(possibly lethal!), and so He was quick to point out that the 'Old Law' still stands--and NOTHING will change that.
Matt. 5:17 wrote: Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.


For a sceptic like me, I see this as a vain attempt by the editors of the bible to somehow reconcile the old with the new--an interface or gateway for the semi-osmotic nature of the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament.
Basically, a Fail.
Image
User avatar
justmyopinion
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3343
Joined: Dec 2nd, 2009, 9:45 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by justmyopinion »

Ah, looks like that verse is the "fine print" of the bible....
User avatar
don_pepe
Newbie
Posts: 61
Joined: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:14 pm

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by don_pepe »

It's quite an interesting subject, here's a good summary:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html
User avatar
justmyopinion
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3343
Joined: Dec 2nd, 2009, 9:45 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by justmyopinion »

Oh, I've never been to interested in the bible or it's meaning....I have no problem with people following/believing it, but it's never really been a big part of me....I do however, like to hear peoples honest opinions on it and the whole idea of Christianity....

Edit: OMG! I just clicked on your link.... :coffeecanuck:
User avatar
coffeeFreak
Guru
Posts: 5302
Joined: Oct 22nd, 2009, 6:06 pm

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by coffeeFreak »

From what I understand from my 10yr stint as a "Christian" is that God's law was impossible to keep, so he sent his son Jesus, to be the ultimate blood sacrifice. And that whoever believed in Him would have everlasting life and the old testament's Jewish rituals were no longer necessary to win God's favour.

However if one were to read some of Jesus' words it becomes quickly evident that Christian's pick and choose what being a "real" Christian is about.

Take for example Jesus' perspective of adultery (one of the commandments) "You have heard that it was said 'Do not commit adultery'. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than your whole body to be thrown into hell...if your right hand causes you to sin, cut if off and throw it away...."

Then there is the famous "the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man...every man who prays or prophecies with his head covered dishonours his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head..." (1corintians).

And these are just a couple randoms picked out of the New testament; I never saw anyone without a hand or an eye and I did see some men with "covered" heads and women with uncovered heads LOL. The entire bible is like this...and it seemed that people and churches pick and choose bits and pieces from the old and the new testament, yet no particular perspective could argue having a legitimate and definitive understanding without being contradicted by another's perspective.
User avatar
justmyopinion
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3343
Joined: Dec 2nd, 2009, 9:45 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by justmyopinion »

Oh man - no wonder people are so confused about the bible - who can make sense of it, really...I have never understood Chritianity other then the simple belief in a higher being - why must one follow a book in order to believe in something (or someone) "correctly"? Isn't it just important to have belief in something??
User avatar
Born_again
Guru
Posts: 5352
Joined: May 29th, 2008, 2:21 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by Born_again »

coffeeFreak wrote:From what I understand from my 10yr stint as a "Christian" is that God's law was impossible to keep, so he sent his son Jesus, to be the ultimate blood sacrifice. And that whoever believed in Him would have everlasting life and the old testament's Jewish rituals were no longer necessary to win God's favour.


Well, this is the crux of all dissonance within the whole gamut of Christian theology. This is why I cannot respect anyone that feigns piety and start bleating about how soft churches have gone and all that self ingratiating stuff. RUBBISH! If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the freakin' walk! I'll tell you right now that the Koran is like a bleedin' Liberal Party holiday camp compared to the OT; the very same OT that JC commands 'you' to abide by.

But no, comfort levels are seriously challenged, not only morally, but mentally and physically; and they are seemingly too much of a cross to bear. Don't worry; just get a bunch of apologists to soften everything down to mere 'figures of speech' and all the rest of that tripe. Talk about taking hermeneutics to a new level!! If JC could accept the OT literally, then so can 'you'(unless you think 'you're' better than Him, of course?)!

You can quite plainly see that JC was explicit in elucidating that The Law (the OT) is not only to be heeded, but he even clarified further by saying, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."
You cannot be clearer than that!

This is just a thought, but maybe the gaggle of authors and editors conspired to put the Holy Bible together the way it is, purposely?!! I mean, look at the potential for instilling permanent fear into the readers by throwing in a few thousand contradictions and inexactitudes. Holy Ichiban!! If my mind weren't free I'd be permanently wearing a colostomy bag to deal with my fears, .....for fear of not fully comprehending how fearful I need be! :eyeballspin:
Image
User avatar
quietlywatching84
Übergod
Posts: 1870
Joined: Sep 17th, 2006, 3:47 pm

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by quietlywatching84 »

don_pepe wrote:It's quite an interesting subject, here's a good summary:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html


I've recently come to have a theory about many of these laws that might help you explain some points. One thing you should think about is the fact that the Bible was often one of the only books around that was widely circulated in ancient times. Looking at it in that context, you could almost think of it as an ancient "how-to guide".

For example, one crop planting may have been a rule of thumb for stimulating trade or good agriculture practice. Perhaps that didn't work well in application or went out of favor and thus was cut out. Many religions speak out against debts. The only reason I can think why that would make it in the book is because that probably was a great rule of thumb to have reach many people. This is one that is still considered wise advice today.

Many rules dealing with relationships between the sexes were probably the best rules at that time to keep young men and women from getting out of control in the way we still see today with their hormones raging.

Today, we may see some of them as silly, but a thousand years ago that might of been cutting -edge social policy. Remember, until the printing press came out, written material was difficult and time consuming to reproduce, thus many texts were likely made as "purposeful" as possible.

The changes merely show that it was a work in progress. That's just my theory, but often I think it can be wise to take the bible in context. Sure, you can use it as a spiritual guide as you see fit, but don't forget that it probably had a practical purpose, considering that it may have been on of the few books around in many ancient locales.

I should probably point out that variations or modern incarnations of those rules still exist today. For the most part, the Christian values still remain. We merely just do many of those same things in what seems to be a more updated way.
Silence is golden and duct tape is silver.
User avatar
justmyopinion
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3343
Joined: Dec 2nd, 2009, 9:45 am

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by justmyopinion »

quietlywatching - if I am understanding you correctly, that theory has been told to me before and makes sense - that the bible was more a guide then something to be followed word for word and if you didn't you were a sinner! lol....your thoughts make sense to me, I call them morals....lol
User avatar
quietlywatching84
Übergod
Posts: 1870
Joined: Sep 17th, 2006, 3:47 pm

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by quietlywatching84 »

quietlywatching - if I am understanding you correctly, that theory has been told to me before and makes sense - that the bible was more a guide then something to be followed word for word and if you didn't you were a sinner!


In essense yes. Most importantly, it must be taken in historical context.

I'm not a christian myself, but I've had the conversation with many close christain friends who do use the above line of thought to various degrees.

I also take it to be "multi-purpose". Don't forget, the church was in charge of many things in the past that today we leave to governments and business. Thus I don't find it hard to imagine that certain documents may contain things we don't expect from the church today.

For example, today we go to a financial advisor to get advice about taking on debts, in the past, maybe there was only a cleric for hundreds of miles. The cleric would consult the Bible (because he was likely the only person who knew how to read for hundreds of miles in any direction as well) and it would have certain areas that would give the cleric a general idea how to advise the local populace.
Silence is golden and duct tape is silver.
User avatar
BVulgaris
Board Meister
Posts: 623
Joined: Jan 16th, 2010, 1:46 pm

Re: The Laws of Moses

Post by BVulgaris »

Ok, so we've touched on

1.Origins of the Bible

2.Purpose of the bible, past and present

3.Tradition of interpretation of the bible

4.Implementation of the practice of worship


point 1 and 3 i think are the most important, because it answers the purpose (pt 2) and whats wrong with point 4.

Really point 1 almost does it on its own.

I
Born_again wrote:This is just a thought, but maybe the gaggle of authors and editors conspired to put the Holy Bible together the way it is, purposely?!! I mean, look at the potential for instilling permanent fear into the readers by throwing in a few thousand contradictions and inexactitudes. Holy Ichiban!! If my mind weren't free I'd be permanently wearing a colostomy bag to deal with my fears, .....for fear of not fully comprehending how fearful I need be! :eyeballspin:



When I read this, i thought about a documentary i have watched that touches on the topic. I have posted it in another thread, but i think its very pertinent to the question raised here.

"Who Wrote the Bible?"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 178434620#

There are other sources on this question, but the short answer is.... yes. The bible was basically compiled much like the hadiths or traditions of the Quran/Koran were compiled.

For the Bible many scholars, who are called the early church fathers some times, gathered together all the stories about jesus that they could then began piecing them together into a book that held everything a believer needed to know.

The problem with this is, you have to wonder how 100 years or so in between affected the information from those to said it, to those who wrote it, to those who recompiled it.

Also remember that this documentary record that went into the bible was also the record which the original jewish beliefs were founded as well as muslim beliefs.

In fact, in the case of the muslims, they compiled stories far and wide about the guy, much like the way it was gathered and compiled for jesus. Except if you listen to the original sermon mohammad gave, his task is to hand the message given to him by god to the people. The hadiths or traditions were then compiled of his life and his actions as if he was a messiah of sorts. But through the gathering process only an estimated 1% of all the stories gathered were interpreted and placed into the holy books. Many muslims today protest against the traditionalist viewpoints surrounding the 1% sample of the hadiths of mohammad, and prefer the message that was given to him by god. This is much like what happened with the protestants in europe.

Through rejection of the traditionalist way of thinking, a great empire was created based upon scientific reasoning. This is what layed the foundation of intellectual discourse that found its way into greece and influenced every portion of the various intellecutal revolutions in europe.

There is also a very interesting paralell once you start looking at the history behind the decisions of emperor constantine and his efforts of conversion and the creation of an empire of christians. Remember that originally christians were just the jewish followers of jesus's teachings. Some schollars believe that the word christian was kind of a derrogatory word for a jew that believed in jesus's teachings.

The empires of christ continued on from constantine and the position of holy roman emperor started evolving and changing. Infact the pope's position comes from those traditions started from peter's original position as head of the church.

In all instances of the followers of the god of abraham, they have continually failed to keep the basic principles. Even Ann Coulter forgets that when she mentions that jews have laws and they keep to get into heaven, and thus the christians have the fast track program, that even the christians have a very basic law. Those that practice the teachings of jesus and believe through him are saved. So simply saying you are christian, jewish, muslim, etc. does not cut it. Studying into the depths of the organization, the text, etc. brings you to a point where you may disagree on the details, but you cannot disagree that they all have many of the same basic principles and they must be followed for anything else important to occur.

The most prominent of these is the definition of the hypocrite. The declaration of the principle of universality follows this philosophy. That you apply to yourself, that which you apply to others.

and so getting back to the topic, points 1 - 4 are more or less answered of any religion when you delve into the historical record, the documentary record, and the academic research. To neglect the question of how the compilation came into being is to neglect the context for which it was written, or even the lessons themselves. (I cant tell you how many times i've opened a watchtower book on the life of jesus and found almost complete misrepresentations of the stories you read in the bible.).

But if you want something to believe in, start reading about it. Would you blindly sign a contract with your name? Or would you read and study into it. Furthermore.... how would you act upon it?

Knowing your beliefs and where they come and why there are there are as important as knowing why the nazi holocaust took place and what lead up to it. Dont sign up for and answer that you suspect is crap because no one else will give you a better answer.... go find out for yourself. Go look with your own eyes, your own ears, your own heart, your own mind. Always learn.


sorry... i seem to have gone off on another long winded journey lol.
my apologies, and thank you for your time!

Return to “Religion & Spirituality”