Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Nebula
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

Post by Nebula »

Wow, Nab. I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote.

I remain disgusted with the OP's original comments:

I have said for many years the Catholic Church is a haven for gays and lesbians. I firmly believe it has always been.

The Catholic church is last place in the world to be a haven for gays and lesbians. Clearly, g'ma is making an association between homosexuality and pedophilia and it is absurd.

I have nothing against gays and lesbians at all. What I have huge issues with is hiding it under the churches' robes and playing with innocent, trusting children - then lying about it, cloaking it in secrecy for centuries and making feeble excuses.

By 'it', g'ma is referring to gays and lesbians in the context of pedophilia. Again, an absurd statement.
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Nebula wrote:Wow, Nab. I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote.

I remain disgusted with the OP's original comments:

I have said for many years the Catholic Church is a haven for gays and lesbians. I firmly believe it has always been.

The Catholic church is last place in the world to be a haven for gays and lesbians. Clearly, g'ma is making an association between homosexuality and pedophilia and it is absurd.

I have nothing against gays and lesbians at all. What I have huge issues with is hiding it under the churches' robes and playing with innocent, trusting children - then lying about it, cloaking it in secrecy for centuries and making feeble excuses.

By 'it', g'ma is referring to gays and lesbians in the context of pedophilia. Again, an absurd statement.


Ok, now we have that sorted, if you open your mind and do your research, you may in fact find that G'ma is right (at least to some degree), so it is not "absurd". But if you wion't read and at least consider the points made in the link I provided (and the studies referenced therein), what's the point of discussing anything?

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Nebula
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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She is not right. She is confusing homosexuality with pedophilia and child molestation. (The last two are actually different and I was so heated before that I mistakenly used the term pedophilia when child molestation would have been more approriate.)

In any event, she is dead wrong.
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Nebula wrote:She is not right. She is confusing homosexuality with pedophilia and child molestation. (The last two are actually different and I was so heated before that I mistakenly used the term pedophilia when child molestation would have been more approriate.)

In any event, she is dead wrong.


Settle down Neb. As I said, there is (IMO) as much an association between homosexuality and paedophilia AND child molestation as there is between heterosexuality and the same. The question appears to be, does the Catholic Church provide an attraction and a haven for SOME homosexuals who prefer paedophilia, particularly little boys?

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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

Post by Nebula »

Here is an excellent article from Psychology Today (2008).


Published on Psychology Today (http://www.psychologytoday.com)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homosexuality and Pedophilia: The False Link
By Joe Kort
Created Sep 15 2008 - 2:00pm

Q: I've heard therapists say that a male adult who sexually abuses a boy isn't necessarily ‘homosexual.' This seems confusing: If he isn't homosexual, then why would he sexually molest boys, instead of girls?

This is a very good question, and there are several ways to respond to it. First, we need to clarify our definitions. When discussing sexual abuse and molestation of children, there's often conflict over terminology. One frequently quoted researchers on the topic of homosexuality and child molestation, Gregory Herek, a research psychologist at the University of California, defines pedophilia as "a psychosexual disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners, which may or may not be acted upon." He defines child sexual abuse as "actual sexual contact between an adult and someone who has not reached the legal age of consent." Not all pedophiles actually molest children, he points out. A pedophile may be attracted to children, but never actually engage in sexual contact with them. Quite often, pedophiles never develop a sexual orientation toward other adults.

Herek points out that child molestation and child sexual abuse refer to "actions," without implying any "particular psychological makeup or motive on the part of the perpetrator." In other words, not all incidents of child sexual abuse are perpetrated by pedophiles. Pedophilia can be viewed as a kind of sexual fetish, wherein the person requires the mental image of a child--not necessarily a flesh-and-blood child--to achieve sexual gratification. Rarely does a pedophile experience sexual desire for adults of either gender. They usually don't identify as homosexual-the majority identify as heterosexual, even those who abuse children of the same gender They are sexually aroused by youth, not by gender. In contrast, child molesters often exert power and control over children in an effort to dominate them. They do experience sexual desire for adults, but molest children episodically, for reasons apart from sexual desire, much as rapists enjoy power, violence and controlling their humiliated victims. Indeed, research supports that a child molester isn't any more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual.

In fact, some research shows that for pedophiles, the gender of the child is immaterial. Accessibility is more the factor in who a pedophile abuses. This may explain the high incidence of children molested in church communities and fraternal organizations, where the pedophile may more easily have access to children. In these situations, an adult male is trusted by those around him, including children and their families. Males are often given access to boys to mentor, teach, coach and advise. Therefore, a male pedophile may have easier access to a male child. In trying to make sense of an adult male's sexually abusing a male child, many of us mislabel it as an act of homosexuality, which it isn't.

Feminists have argued for years that rape is not a sex act-it is an act of violence using sex as a weapon. In the same way, a pedophile abusing a child of the same sex is not perpetrating a homosexual act, but an act of violence and exploitation using sexuality. There is a world of difference between these two things, but it requires a subtle understanding of the inner motivation of the abuser.

To call child molestation of a boy by a man "homosexual" or of a girl by a man "heterosexual" is to misunderstand pedophilia. No true pedophile is attracted to adults, so neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality applies. Accordingly, Herek suggests calling men's sexual abuse of boys "male-male molestation" and men's abuse of girls, "male-female molestation."

Interestingly, Anna C. Salter writes, in "Predators, Pedophiles, Rapists and other Sex Offenders", that when a man molests little girls, we call him a "pedophile" and not a "heterosexual." Of course, when a man molests little boys, people say outright, or mutter under their breath, "homosexual. Herek writes that because of our society's aversion to male homosexuality, and the attempts made by some to represent gay men as a danger to "family values," many in our society immediately think of male-male molestation as homosexuality. He compares this with the time when African Americans were often falsely accused of raping white women, and when medieval Jews were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Both are examples of how mainstream society eagerly jumped to conclusions to that justified discrimination and violence against these minorities. Today, gays face the same kind of prejudice. Most recently, we've seen gay men unfairly turned out of the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of this myth that gay men are likely to be child molesters. Keeping gays out of scouting won't protect boys from pedophiles.

In reality, abuse of boys by gay pedophiles is rare, and the abuse of girls by lesbians is rarer still. Nicholas Groth is a noted authority on this topic. In a 1982 study by Grot, he asks, "Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children, and are pre-adolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual." Herek writes, similarly, that abuse of boys by gay men is rare; and that the abuse of girls by lesbians is rarer still.

The topic of female-female molestation continues to be largely ignored. There are few books on female sex offenders, particularly about mothers sexually abusing their daughters. I can find only one book on mothers who sexually abuse their sons by Hani Miletski, M.S.W., entitled, "Mother-Son Incest: The Unthinkable Taboo." Unthinkable is an appropriate word-so much so that there is nothing else in the literature on this topic, even though female pedophiles and female child molesters certainly exist.

We know so much more than we did historically and yet have a long way to go. We can understand child sexual abuse further when people's bias and prejudice are removed and the evidence is empirical and scientific.
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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NAB wrote:Settle The question appears to be, does the Catholic Church provide an attraction and a haven for SOME homosexuals who prefer paedophilia, particularly little boys?

Your question shows a misunderstanding of the situation. It has NOTHING to do with homosexuals.

Does the Catholic church provide a haven for child molesters and pedophiles? It certainly appears so, doesn't it. That has nothing do with homesexuality.

I mean, come on, Nab. Why didn't you ask the above question like this: Does the Catholic church provide an attraction and a haven for some heterosexuals who prefer pedophilia?

Why didn't you ask it that way? Why did you have to put 'homosexuals' and 'pedophilia' in the same sentence?
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Nebula wrote:
NAB wrote:Settle The question appears to be, does the Catholic Church provide an attraction and a haven for SOME homosexuals who prefer paedophilia, particularly little boys?

Your question shows a misunderstanding of the situation. It has NOTHING to do with homosexuals.

Does the Catholic church provide a haven for child molesters and pedophiles? It certainly appears so, doesn't it. That has nothing do with homesexuality.

I mean, come on, Nab. Why didn't you ask the above question like this: Does the Catholic church provide an attraction and a haven for some heterosexuals who prefer pedophilia?

Why didn't you ask it that way? Why did you have to put 'homosexuals' and 'pedophilia' in the same sentence?


I see your point. However the issue g'ma raised as I see it relates to homosexual paedophiles and child molesters AND the Catholic Church as possibly an attraction and haven for them specifically. To me it is therefore a red herring to bring heterosexual sexual offenders into the discussion in order to divert attention from the topic at hand.

Please take the time to read the link I posted, even if you have to hold your nose while doing it.

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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

Post by Born_again »

Nebula wrote:
I mean, come on, Nab. Why didn't you ask the above question like this: Does the Catholic church provide an attraction and a haven for some heterosexuals who prefer pedophilia?

Why didn't you ask it that way? Why did you have to put 'homosexuals' and 'pedophilia' in the same sentence?


From article above wrote:Herek writes that because of our society's aversion to male homosexuality, and the attempts made by some to represent gay men as a danger to "family values," many in our society immediately think of male-male molestation as homosexuality. He compares this with the time when African Americans were often falsely accused of raping white women, and when medieval Jews were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Both are examples of how mainstream society eagerly jumped to conclusions to that justified discrimination and violence against these minorities.


Does that answer your question, Nebula?
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Well I knew that, Born. Sometimes goading the misinformed into admitting their mistakes works; other times it doesn't.
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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The thought just occurred to me, hopefully no one is trying to create the impression here that there is NO SUCH THING AS HOMOSEXUALS INVOLVED IN PAEDOPHILIA/CHILD MOLESTATION?

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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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If you read the article I posted from Psychology Today, you'd know the answer to that.

Edited to add: Actually, I'll answer your question, Nab, with this:

If I had young sons, I'd rather have them taken care of by a homosexual than a pedophile.
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Nebula wrote:If you read the article I posted from Psychology Today, you'd know the answer to that.


I'll get to it Neb, I'll get to it. But humour me and answer the question anyway. I read lots of conflicting studies that point to this and that conclusion. Rarely are any of them absolute.

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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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I've seen no evidence of that NAB, but I'm curious as to why you would wish to bring it up in such a manner. Perhaps if we see "HOMOSEXUALS INVOLVED IN PAEDOPHILIA/CHILD MOLESTATION" printed enough times, some would pray that the intellectually weak would start to subconsciously make word associations that falls into line with their own homophobic views? I don't know. Hang on, let's try it again for effect:

HOMOSEXUALS INVOLVED IN PAEDOPHILIA/CHILD MOLESTATION

Anyone feeling better now?
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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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Born_again wrote:I've seen no evidence of that NAB, but I'm curious as to why you would wish to bring it up in such a manner. Perhaps if we see "HOMOSEXUALS INVOLVED IN PAEDOPHILIA/CHILD MOLESTATION" printed enough times, some would pray that the intellectually weak would start to subconsciously make word associations that falls into line with their own homophobic views? I don't know. Hang on, let's try it again for effect:

HOMOSEXUALS INVOLVED IN PAEDOPHILIA/CHILD MOLESTATION

Anyone feeling better now?


I'm not trying to spin or influence anything BA. I asked a simple question. Is there or is there not evidence that SOME homosexuals get involved in peadophilia and/or child molestation?

And how, if at all, does that relate to the Catholic Church potentially being an attraction and haven for anyone who is homosexual should they have such leanings?

Edit to add: BTW BA, you left out the "NO SUCH THING .." part when you quoted me. Nice try though, although rather juvenile IMO LOL.

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Re: Catholic Pedophilia in Mexico, too

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NAB wrote:Is there or is there not evidence that SOME homosexuals get involved in paedophilia and/or child molestation?
[edited]

NAB, I live in a world full of probabilities and facts, so my accepting the statement is merely a foregone conclusion. However, I would never allow that to persuade me that homophobia can be justified.

As for the church part, well, I'd rather not comment specifically about that organisation. Instead I would just remind myself that there are plenty of avenues available to an individual homosexual who is also a paedophile. Admittedly, joining an organisation with a track record for covering-up abuse would have its merits over other options.
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