Who even says there is a god?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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steven lloyd
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by steven lloyd »

rideforever wrote:
steven lloyd wrote:That’s me ( “God, please let this ball carry the sand trap” ) :dyinglaughing:


does 'god dam did I ever smash that one' count?

As long as you give thanks afterward :wink:
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Glacier
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by Glacier »

rideforever wrote:
Glacier wrote:Welcome back, WSB!

westsidebud wrote: all i would need is one shred of eveidence , i cant go on faith


The above point is very good and valid. No one should ever believe something without some sort of evidence.

There is nothing wrong with faith, as long as it entails some sort of evidence. ie. I have faith that you are indeed the same Westsidebud of old we have all been missing because I have seen evidence through your posting styles.

Some things do take an inordinate amount of faith to believe like the origins of the universe.
    If you believe God did it, then you have to have faith that some being we cannot see or comprehend exists.
    If you believe it was an accident, then you have to have faith that at that time the first law of thermodynamics can be broken, and
    If you believe it the universe always existed, but came into an orderly existence on its own, then you have to have faith that entropy the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) can be broken.

Using occam's razor, which scenario should one put their faith in?


Interesting post.

I don't think it's hard to assume the laws of physics that humans came up with are flawed. We know there is a lot of stuff we don't understand, and I think we already have pretty good evidence that said laws are flawed. From materials acting odd when super cooled, to things acting like waves and particles while our laws say they must be one or the other.

We don't even know why we act as we do, or how to convince people to be nice to eachother. We can't even convince people to give up their 5th ferrari to save 100 childrens lives. I'd be pretty disapointed in us if we figure out where the universe came from before we figure that out.

I know this is focussed on god and not religion, but just for fun, I find it quite easy to assume some prenant girl was lying when she said she was a virgin.


Assuming whether there is a god or not can have an effect on our lives.
Assuming whether or not our laws of physics are perfect does not have much effect on our lives.

I understand the 2 assumptions are somewhat tied together, but I think our clear lack of knowledge of the universe shows that there's plenty of room for our laws to be flawed, and with the plenty of room comes plenty of room to make these 2 assumptions not that closely tied together.

Whoever said laws of thermodynamics would have to be broken is also acting on the assumption that they know how things started.

Humans didn't come up with the laws of physics, they merely discovered them.

Acceleration always takes the form (in terms of velocity and time):
Image

We also know gravity is law of nature even though we don't understand how it works. It has been proven through scientific experiment that: Image

Without knowing how magnetism works, we still know that electromagnetic force can always be described as:
Image

Then we have the Second Law of Thermodynamics that proves the universe tends towards disorder over time. We know the laws of thermodynamics exist even though we can't fully wrap our head around why. Image

All these are universal laws of nature. Assuming they don't always exist is faith without a shred of evidence.
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36Drew
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by 36Drew »

Glacier wrote:
rideforever wrote:
Glacier wrote:Welcome back, WSB!

westsidebud wrote: all i would need is one shred of eveidence , i cant go on faith


The above point is very good and valid. No one should ever believe something without some sort of evidence.

There is nothing wrong with faith, as long as it entails some sort of evidence. ie. I have faith that you are indeed the same Westsidebud of old we have all been missing because I have seen evidence through your posting styles.

Some things do take an inordinate amount of faith to believe like the origins of the universe.
    If you believe God did it, then you have to have faith that some being we cannot see or comprehend exists.
    If you believe it was an accident, then you have to have faith that at that time the first law of thermodynamics can be broken, and
    If you believe it the universe always existed, but came into an orderly existence on its own, then you have to have faith that entropy the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) can be broken.

Using occam's razor, which scenario should one put their faith in?


Interesting post.

I don't think it's hard to assume the laws of physics that humans came up with are flawed. We know there is a lot of stuff we don't understand, and I think we already have pretty good evidence that said laws are flawed. From materials acting odd when super cooled, to things acting like waves and particles while our laws say they must be one or the other.

We don't even know why we act as we do, or how to convince people to be nice to eachother. We can't even convince people to give up their 5th ferrari to save 100 childrens lives. I'd be pretty disapointed in us if we figure out where the universe came from before we figure that out.

I know this is focussed on god and not religion, but just for fun, I find it quite easy to assume some prenant girl was lying when she said she was a virgin.


Assuming whether there is a god or not can have an effect on our lives.
Assuming whether or not our laws of physics are perfect does not have much effect on our lives.

I understand the 2 assumptions are somewhat tied together, but I think our clear lack of knowledge of the universe shows that there's plenty of room for our laws to be flawed, and with the plenty of room comes plenty of room to make these 2 assumptions not that closely tied together.

Whoever said laws of thermodynamics would have to be broken is also acting on the assumption that they know how things started.

Humans didn't come up with the laws of physics, they merely discovered them.

Acceleration always takes the form (in terms of velocity and time):
Image

We also know gravity is law of nature even though we don't understand how it works. It has been proven through scientific experiment that: Image

Without knowing how magnetism works, we still know that electromagnetic force can always be described as:
Image

Then we have the Second Law of Thermodynamics that proves the universe tends towards disorder over time. We know the laws of thermodynamics exist even though we can't fully wrap our head around why. Image

All these are universal laws of nature. Assuming they don't always exist is faith without a shred of evidence.


There are plenty of discussions/papers available that discuss the first and second laws of thermodynamics and why the creationist argument fails when pointing to those two laws as "evidence" for creation.

The second is simple - the "argument" is that evolution cannot exist where there's a state of entropy. The answer is "self-organization". This can be observed with laser particles, crystalline structure, and DNA strands.
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Glacier
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by Glacier »

Huh? When did we start talking about evolution?
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36Drew
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by 36Drew »

Glacier wrote:Huh? When did we start talking about evolution?


Sorry - I guess I misread this bit from you:
If you believe it the universe always existed, but came into an orderly existence on its own, then you have to have faith that entropy the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) can be broken.



That argument is usually used as an example of anti-evolution. That said, the second law does not disallow self-organization.
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rideforever
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by rideforever »

Glacier wrote:Humans didn't come up with the laws of physics, they merely discovered them.

Acceleration always takes the form (in terms of velocity and time):
Image

We also know gravity is law of nature even though we don't understand how it works. It has been proven through scientific experiment that: Image

Without knowing how magnetism works, we still know that electromagnetic force can always be described as:
Image

Then we have the Second Law of Thermodynamics that proves the universe tends towards disorder over time. We know the laws of thermodynamics exist even though we can't fully wrap our head around why. Image

All these are universal laws of nature. Assuming they don't always exist is faith without a shred of evidence.


We discovered that certain things are related to other things and act in certain ways and we made equations to represent this. These equations we made, were just our guesses. People made guesses then tested them. If the equation gave valid results in all the tests, then some people would assume it's right. But, the equation could be slightly flawed, but the slight flaw is too fine for us to see, untill we find harder tests for it.

for all we know, V = dt may actually be
V = dt/0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
V = dt will look correct in every test we can come up with.
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katzenjammer
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by katzenjammer »

“Some things do take an inordinate amount of faith to believe like the origins of the universe.
If you believe God did it, then you have to have faith that some being we cannot see or comprehend exists.
If you believe it was an accident, then you have to have faith that at that time the first law of thermodynamics can be broken, and
If you believe it the universe always existed, but came into an orderly existence on its own, then you have to have faith that entropy the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) can be broken. “


I don’t have any beliefs about the origin of the universe. I DON’T KNOW, no faith required. But I do think it might be interesting to know more.

If I wished to learn more about our origins, how would a belief in God, who cannot demonstrate any effect ( we can’t see or understand Him), advance my objective? It doesn’t. The god theory, which requires 100% faith, puts a damper, a cold wet rag, if you will permit, on pursuing other options (theories) that may be supported by actual evidence. The less your beliefs rely on faith, the better the confidence you should have that what you do believe has some bases in reality.
The god theory does not help me to understand anything about the origin of the universe and therefore should be dismissed as useless.
Now who wrote those laws of thermodynamics and what are his qualifications? :sunshine:
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steven lloyd
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by steven lloyd »

katzenjammer wrote: If I wished to learn more about our origins, how would a belief in God, who cannot demonstrate any effect ( we can’t see or understand Him), advance my objective? It doesn’t. The god theory, which requires 100% faith, puts a damper, a cold wet rag, if you will permit, on pursuing other options (theories) that may be supported by actual evidence. The less your beliefs rely on faith, the better the confidence you should have that what you do believe has some bases in reality.

You are absolutely correct in suggesting belief in God, in itself, does not advance any objective in learning or discovery. However, to suggest belief in God puts a damper on learning or discovery is simply erroneous at best. There are many scientists, including physicists and astrophysicists (wish I still had the journal so I could refer to it) who believe in God and still pursue discovery in their chosen specialties independent from their faith. Something that some people have a hard time with is the idea that belief in the existence of something that can be called God somehow interferes with belief in science or scientific method. I don’t really care whether you believe in God or not, but assuming people who do have quit asking the questions that we seek to answer or understand through scientific investigation and discovery is the type of assumptive trap that a person trying to engage in real critical thought would make an effort to avoid.
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katzenjammer
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by katzenjammer »

And that noise you hear after lightning--Thor is responsible for that with his big invisable hammer.
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rideforever
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by rideforever »

katzenjammer wrote:
I don’t have any beliefs about the origin of the universe. I DON’T KNOW, no faith required. But I do think it might be interesting to know more.


Well said. As far as I know, you have the only view on it that is correct: "I don't know"
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westsidebud
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by westsidebud »

well if it was proven no god exists or ever did exist, would it realy matter?
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steven lloyd
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by steven lloyd »

westsidebud wrote:well if it was proven no god exists or ever did exist, would it realy matter?

:129: would it to you ?
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steven lloyd
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by steven lloyd »

katzenjammer wrote:And that noise you hear after lightning--Thor is responsible for that with his big invisable hammer.

:137:

katzenjammer wrote: I don’t have any beliefs about the origin of the universe. I DON’T KNOW, no faith required. But I do think it might be interesting to know more.

Me too, but let’s not start with some silly assumptions on Thor. Let’s use scientific investigation, k ?
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westsidebud
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by westsidebud »

no it wouldnt matter one bit to me , and if it was proven there was a god it still make no diffrence , we must live our lives as free as possible
GO CANUCKS GO
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katzenjammer
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Re: Who even says there is a god?

Post by katzenjammer »

My assumptions on Thor are no less silly than any assumption about any god. Of course, Thor, makes a measurable ( and therefore scientific) effect with his large hammer.

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