My View On Life

[zzontar]

Ayer and Flew were self-proclaimed atheists who later became theists... you say they're lying, I need more proof they're lying than just because you said so.

No, I'm now saying that you are lying. You have had ample opportunity to check your sources yet you persist in your dishonest Christian-apologetics knavery. I have prompted you on at least 2 occasions to check your sources, but you wilfully chose to insert Truth instead of truth. Be gone!

Wow you're sure overly obsessed with this. My source is the internet... probably the same as your source if you have one. Happy now?

[5VP]

God's motivations are his own just as your motivations are your own. How else to create a mass population and guide it so that as many people as possible can ejoy healthy abundant lives.

blind faith is kinda like rose colored glasses - you see what you want

guiding this "mass population" so that as many people as possible can enjoy happy abundant lives???? You need to get out of your upper middle class suburb and start looking outside your neighbourhood. The world breeds misery, a lot of it man made - a lot of it NATURAL. Healthy abundant lives are a 1st world luxury.

i have read the bible from cover to cover - new and old testaments. how you can say that there is no mumbo jumbo involved is a clear indicator as to who i am trying to have a rational conversation with.

Carry on......

Wow...

The bible was written long before the days we now live in. Even before most of the current mainstream religious dogma was developed including christianity. The scribes of the day didn't have the luxury of the "mumbo jumbo" which you errantly place on this historical document.

Much of the science knowledge we now accept as fact was inspired by following the clues of history left in the bible.

Try not reading it as a religious text on your next pass through it...

If you saw where and how I live you'd laugh along with me about the "upper" middle class jab...

My nearest neighbor is 60 km away so I have a lot of time for the peaceful comtemplations that are obviously lacking in the lives of so many others. My "neigborhood" is a testament to the sheer beauty and wonder of GOD's creations.

In fact my entire business clientele is made up of stressed urbanites (several thousand by now) who come here to this pocket of paradise seeking what I already know.

GOD's gifts of Peace, tranquility, fresh air are good for the human soul...

I highly recommend it.

Through the 80's, as a member of the Canadian Forces, I had an opportunity to visit some of the Shiite holes of this planet including parts of the Holy Land.

Many of my beliefs are derived from those experiences some; I've seen the murderous and ugliest side of humans possible (no movie script) and also the beauty of seeing how people with nothing compared to us here in Canada, and who live in daily violence, can perservere and be happy, kind and giving with only faith.

Faith is seeing things with eyes clearly wide open. Seeing everything as it is. There are no doubts.

It's being a realist and realizing that even though you are all ultimately alone with your thoughts on this blue marble in space, we are all here together by the grace of a superior force and that your life's path is there before you to use or abuse as you wish.

Rose colored glasses are tools of pretense used by those unable to face their fears.

A true atheist has faith of sorts anyways, that GOD doesn't exist for them; and wouldn't need to argue or deny the existence of GOD. Certainly not anonymously on an internet forum.

At the very least,; if you surely believe that the sun will rise and set as you go about living your day, that is faith too. If you didn't have this basic faith you'd just remain in bed and wait to die.

If you believe that the energies of love are real, than that is faith too. Where does the tangible yet invisible energy of love come from?

I can see that you are a seeker and do have faith, of sorts, regardless of your current thoughts on the matter of the big picture...

GOD sees it too...

Amen brother/sister...

[Born_again]

Ayer and Flew were self-proclaimed atheists who later became theists... you say they're lying, I need more proof they're lying than just because you said so.

No, I'm now saying that you are lying. You have had ample opportunity to check your sources yet you persist in your dishonest Christian-apologetics knavery. I have prompted you on at least 2 occasions to check your sources, but you wilfully chose to insert Truth instead of truth. Be gone!

Wow you're sure overly obsessed with this. My source is the internet... probably the same as your source if you have one. Happy now?

Yes, Zzontar, I'm happy now. I am also very grateful for your input.


For those who don't know, Ayer stressed his lack of belief in god or gods to the day he died, and Flew publicly declared that his atheism had 'converted' to deism in his final years amongst much controversy.

Let's see if Zzontar continues telling the Truth, or if he will take a dignified step and tell the truth?

Ayer and Flew were self-proclaimed atheists who later became theists...

[zzontar]

Tell the truth? I just googled "atheists who became theists" and their names came up. I clicked on a lengthy interview with Flew and after a few pages, I came to the conclusion he's not much of an atheist.
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/

Then, a year later, in January 2004, Flew informed Habermas that he had indeed become a theist. While still rejecting the concept of special revelation, whether Christian, Jewish or Islamic, nonetheless he had concluded that theism was true. In Flew’s words, he simply “had to go where the evidence leads.”

HABERMAS: Tony, you recently told me that you have come to believe in the existence of God. Would you comment on that?

FLEW: Well, I don’t believe in the God of any revelatory system, although I am open to that. But it seems to me that the case for an Aristotelian God who has the characteristics of power and also intelligence, is now much stronger than it ever was before.

HABERMAS: You very kindly noted that our debates and discussions had influenced your move in the direction of theism. (11) You mentioned that this initial influence contributed in part to your comment that naturalistic efforts have never
succeeded in producing “a plausible conjecture as to how any of these complex molecules might have evolved from simple entities.” (12) Then in your recently rewritten introduction to the forthcoming edition of your classic volume God and Philosophy, you say that the original version of that book is now obsolete. You mention a number of trends in theistic argumentation that you find convincing, like big bang cosmology, fine tuning and Intelligent Design arguments. Which arguments for God’s existence did you find most persuasive?

FLEW: I think that the most impressive arguments for God’s existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries. I’ve never been much impressed by the kalam cosmological argument, and I don’t think it has gotten any stronger recently. However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.

HABERMAS: You also recently told me that you do not find the moral argument to be very persuasive. Is that right?

FLEW: That’s correct. It seems to me that for a strong moral argument, you’ve got to have God as the justification of morality. To do this makes doing the morally good a purely prudential matter rather than, as the moral philosophers of my youth used to call it, a good in itself. (Compare the classic discussion in Plato’s Euthyphro.)

Regardless, I think it's possible for an atheist to change his/her belief whether through personal experience, near death experience, or research. You don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Corneliousrooster]

A true atheist has faith of sorts anyways, that GOD doesn't exist for them; and wouldn't need to argue or deny the existence of GOD. Certainly not anonymously on an internet forum.

I don't have "faith" god does not exist - i do not "know" and have seen/heard/felt nothing to indicate otherwise- (just mumbo jumbo and hearsay)

At the very least,; if you surely believe that the sun will rise and set as you go about living your day, that is faith too. If you didn't have this basic faith you'd just remain in bed and wait to die.

Faith and probability should not be confused. i can expect the sun to rise and set everyday because it has for every other day of my life - and there is lots of well documented and corroborated undisputed history that backs up this probability. I didn't suddenly discover a rising/setting sun that only i and a "select few" can see.

As for reading the bible again - i was "Forced' to read far more than I ever would have on my own accord- there are very few books in life I have read more than once, and the bible would not be at the top of my list for a re-read (didn't find it all that good the first 20 go rounds). i am glad you seem to have found a way for yourself to read between the lines - i have not. The fact that there are 4 versions recited by 4 different people in the new testament is a pretty clear indicator as to how much authenticity to put into the bible and its stories.

regardless of where you live - the fact that you say god's plan is to keep the large populations happy and abundant shows you are only seeing what you want to see - just because you see a homeless kid with a smile on his face in a 3rd world disaster area - does not mean god has done anything. Means a kid is feeling a natural human emotion despite his circumstances - no god neccessary....

[5VP]

SO close...

Not too long ago I was actually accused of being a satanist by an adulterous, cheat, liar and coveter of women...

Funny how super christians, like "atheists", also like to bend faith in GOD to suit themselves.

Just to give you the benefit of doubt, I'll go to the devil's playground in Sin City (Vegas) to bet on the probability that the God created Sun won't rise or set as faith would have it tomorrow.

Which is infinitely more likely? It probably won't or it probably will? I have faith that it will. You seem to hedge the bets that at some point it probably won't. I feel sad for you.

Either way it's all part of GOD's design. I have faith in that.

The only difference between our approaches to the same topic is opinion and semantics. I don't see GOD as a singular omnipresent benevolence. GOD is the result of all the positive energies created by humans living in harmony with GOD's plan of love, happiness and abundance.

The fact that not all of the planet lives in its due abundance is not GOD's fault. We have been given free will to decide how well we treat our fellow man. " Do unto others...etc."

You can obviously see how well humans do when they fall off the path lit up by the 10 commandments after succumbing to the easy money of the 7 deadly sins.

It was tough for Adam and Eve too...



The disparity of the gospels is not as divergent as atheists like to assume.

Read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, a former Chicago Tribune crime reporter.

There are some good interviews in it with some of the most highly regarded biblical scholars on the planet...



GOD puts a smile on everybody's face...

Just because a few don't think so doesn't change the fact that happiness is one of GOD's most joyous gifts...

If a child can feel GOD's joy and smile because of it one could ask;

What along this child's life path will change them from a joyous child into a fear ridden adult atheist?

Will these changes come from belief and faith in god's message or will this change come from the fears resulting from living among those who scoff at GOD's plan for us as laid out in the 10 commandments?

Or will it be a result of overzealous super christian hypocrites who chose to interpret the bible according to their contrived religion and scare the crap outa their child's impressionable mind at an early age?

[Corneliousrooster]

SO close...

Not too long ago I was actually accused of being a satanist by an adulterous, cheat, liar and coveter of women...

Funny how super christians, like "atheists", also like to bend faith in GOD to suit themselves.

Just to give you the benefit of doubt, I'll go to the devil's playground in Sin City (Vegas) to bet on the probability that the God created Sun won't rise or set as faith would have it tomorrow.

Which is infinitely more likely? It probably won't or it probably will? I have faith that it will. You seem to hedge the bets that at some point it probably won't. I feel sad for you.how did you perceive that? i said based on the history of human observation of the rising and setting of the sun - all probability points to that it WILL rise and set tomorrow. you and anyone else with vision can sit beside me and day after day we together can experience the sun rising and setting together. we can be separated and asked a series of questions regarding our experience (time it rose?time it set? color? direction it rose? direction it set? etc. etc. - and even though we are multiple different people the answers would -on average- come up the same - you can't apply this analogy of the likely hood of the sun rising and setting with the likely hood in the existence of god - apples and oranges



Either way it's all part of GOD's design. I have faith in that.

The only difference between our approaches to the same topic is opinion and semantics. I don't see GOD as a singular omnipresent benevolence. GOD is the result of all the positive energies created by humans living in harmony with GOD's plan of love, happiness and abundance. I can accept you naming all of the positive energies, for lack of a better word "god" - but once you start with "gods Plan" and specifics of his "plan", you lose me.

The fact that not all of the planet lives in its due abundance is not GOD's fault. We have been given free will to decide how well we treat our fellow man. " Do unto others...etc."

You can obviously see how well humans do when they fall off the path lit up by the 10 commandments after succumbing to the easy money of the 7 deadly sins. our country is built upon the principles of the 7 deadly sins - i keep missing the cries of the religious to help steer the ship in a manner more in line with gods teachings color]

It was tough for Adam and Eve too...



The disparity of the gospels is not as divergent as atheists like to assume.

Read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, a former Chicago Tribune crime reporter.

There are some good interviews in it with some of the most highly regarded biblical scholars on the planet...[color=#0000FF]Don't get me wrong - I would never disclaim the existence of jesus - i am sure there were "messiahs" before christ and there certainly have been plenty since. no convincing neccessary here.



GOD puts a smile on everybody's face...So does Mr. bean ....

Just because a few don't think so doesn't change the fact that happiness is one of GOD's most joyous gifts... happiness is a human emotion that can be clinically tested (the brains interpretation and response to internal and external stimuli)- happiness as a gift from god is pure presumption.

If a child can feel GOD's joy and smile because of it one could ask;I smile and feel joy too....no god required

What along this child's life path will change them from a joyous child into a fear ridden adult atheist? probably oppressive religious zealots that come in the name of christ or mohammad or __________ that attempt to "save" said childrens people. Fear ridden adult atheists??? Why must they be fear ridden to not identify with a god or creator?

Will these changes come from belief and faith in god's message or will this change come from the fears resulting from living among those who scoff at GOD's plan for us as laid out in the 10 commandments? You are familiar with the 10 commandments? you do realize that 5 of the 10 commandments do very little to steer man in a better direction and do far more to feed the ego of this god. As for the other 5, we have created a society that thrives in not following them and last i checked the theists far outnumber and atheists - especially those holding political office.

Or will it be a result of overzealous super christian hypocrites who chose to interpret the bible according to their contrived religion and scare the crap outa their child's impressionable mind at an early age?

[janalta]

Much of the science knowledge we now accept as fact was inspired by following the clues of history left in the bible.

In YOUR opinion. In fact, much of the science we now accept as fact was inspired by ancient civilizations that existed thousands of years before your bible was ever written

Try not reading it as a religious text on your next pass through it...

I have, in fact, read the bible from cover to cover several times...and, not once did I ever read it as a religious text...because I don't believe a word of it to be true...Ok..I believe some of it...I believe that Jesus was a real guy..NOT the son of god, conceived by immaculate conception...just a guy spreading the word...like many before him...and many after him. Most of it...fairy tales, fables, old wives tales...no different than the stories from Greek mythology or Native folklore..

My "neigborhood" is a testament to the sheer beauty and wonder of GOD's creations.

Of nature's wonder.

In fact my entire business clientele is made up of stressed urbanites (several thousand by now) who come here to this pocket of paradise seeking what I already know.

GOD's gifts of Peace, tranquility, fresh air are good for the human soul...

I highly recommend it.

Peace, tranquility, fesh air...definitely all good for the soul.....but to assume that we should all believe they are god's gift and that only christians can appreciate the beauty of nature...is rather shallow and self serving.

Through the 80's, as a member of the Canadian Forces, I had an opportunity to visit some of the Shiite holes of this planet including parts of the Holy Land.

Many of my beliefs are derived from those experiences some; I've seen the murderous and ugliest side of humans possible (no movie script) and also the beauty of seeing how people with nothing compared to us here in Canada, and who live in daily violence, can perservere and be happy, kind and giving with only faith.

Faith is seeing things with eyes clearly wide open. Seeing everything as it is. There are no doubts.

You do know that the vast majority of the people in the countries you speak of are NOT christians...right???
That perhaps we can be perfectly happy, kind and giving without your faith in your god is a concept you just can't fathom or accept, isn't it??

It's being a realist and realizing that even though you are all ultimately alone with your thoughts on this blue marble in space, we are all here together by the grace of a superior force and that your life's path is there before you to use or abuse as you wish.

In your opinion. Not fact...opinion. We, and we alone, are in charge of our life's path.

A true atheist has faith of sorts anyways, that GOD doesn't exist for them; and wouldn't need to argue or deny the existence of GOD. Certainly not anonymously on an internet forum.

I am not arguing whether or not you think your god exists...you do...your choice. What we do argue is the fact that you, and other holy rollers think that your opinion, your faith, your way..is the one and only option. No questions asked.
Atheism isn't about faith...it is that one does not believe in gods and deities. We still have faith in many things....nature, wonder, love, peace, tranquility..we just don' t happen to believe some sort of god made it for us.

At the very least,; if you surely believe that the sun will rise and set as you go about living your day, that is faith too. If you didn't have this basic faith you'd just remain in bed and wait to die.

Again....faith does not equate to a belief in some sort of higher being or deity.

If you believe that the energies of love are real, than that is faith too. Where does the tangible yet invisible energy of love come from?

UGH. Love is a human emotion...it comes from within US...not from above.

I can see that you are a seeker and do have faith, of sorts, regardless of your current thoughts on the matter of the big picture...

GOD sees it too...

NO COMMENT...seriously...
.

I did notice though, even though you had plenty of time to condemn us for our lack of godly faith...you chose to completely ignore all of the questions I asked. Typical really.Seems to happen fairly regularly here...as in real life.

[5VP]

Yeah, Yeah; Semantics, shemantics...

Even though, I'll admit, that I've been laying it on thicker than normal I will comment that My faith in a greater force/power has nothing to do with any particular religious dogma.

Religion is what has turned people off of seeing the real beauty of living a "kinder, gentler"... life within the comforting bonds of the life force.

Perhaps one day you will discover this too..

It's based on a conglomerate of religious studies, theories, notions and philosophies combined with personal experience and experience with sin and studies of other "esoterica". I particularly enjoy reading Sufist philosophy.

My church is nature; my body, my god ; because "All is one"; and that's as complicated as any of this needs to be...

[janalta]

You just refuse to get it , don't you?
The fact that people can be in tune with the wonder and beauty of the same world, of nature, of life....we can live a peaceful, content, happy existance - without having to believe that some sort of higher power created it all.
We do not feel the need to discover your faith.

[1nick]

its the mandate of the christian faith to go forward and spread the word of god.
in their belief, jesus won't return until he's know in the four corners of the globe
I've no problem with that,as long as you don't mind rebuttal
but,some, have a problem with those who don't buy it and get offended by those who bring them to task on what they are are preaching.

[tryscotty]

You just refuse to get it , don't you?
The fact that people can be in tune with the wonder and beauty of the same world, of nature, of life....we can live a peaceful, content, happy existance - without having to believe that some sort of higher power created it all.
We do not feel the need to discover your faith.

Excuse me for butting in. I haven't read this whole thread, nor will I, but I do have an opinion on your comment. If one is an atheist that would mean you simply believe this is all there is and nothing else. Your only hope is the now, this life of 80 or so years. So future wise atheists are hopeless, and that is why its hard to believe. Ones with no real hope can be even close to as happy as those with hope. real or imagined.

[janalta]

Hopeless???!!!

Wow....instead of living ones life in hopes of finding something better after you're dead......seems to make a whole lot more sense to me to live life to it's fullest and enjoy every wonder this world has to offer.

I find it equally unbelievable that one thinks there is only hope for something better than what we have here...what's wrong with the here and now ??

I'd much rather enjoy this life ...and...well.....be happy with what you've got instead of hoping for better !

[tryscotty]

Hopeless???!!!

Wow....instead of living ones life in hopes of finding something better after you're dead......seems to make a whole lot more sense to me to live life to it's fullest and enjoy every wonder this world has to offer.

I find it equally unbelievable that one thinks there is only hope for something better than what we have here...what's wrong with the here and now ??

I'd much rather enjoy this life ...and...well.....be happy with what you've got instead of hoping for better !

You should live this life to the fullest and be as happy as you can be. I agree. But then what? Thats where the two roads end. Anyhow its just my two cents. Best to you.

[5VP]

Hopeless???!!!

Wow....instead of living ones life in hopes of finding something better after you're dead......seems to make a whole lot more sense to me to live life to it's fullest and enjoy every wonder this world has to offer.

I find it equally unbelievable that one thinks there is only hope for something better than what we have here...what's wrong with the here and now ??

I'd much rather enjoy this life ...and...well.....be happy with what you've got instead of hoping for better !

Wow...

That's exactly the way life should be lived. In the "here and now". No argument here. I have faith that GOD gave me this gift of life. Some here are happy believing their GOD less life is the random result of primordial chemical goop somehow coming together over billions of years and giving them their life.

I think both ways of looking at this may be true. What created the goop in the first place?? Genesis??

I've made no mention of "hope for something better than what we have here"; but what I have here is a lot more enjoyable to me and a lot less fear based because of my faith(s) cuz I'm a lot less prone to worrying that "the sky is falling" or getting caught up in the fear based dramas of others.

I don't have to "hope" for anything when everything I "need" comes along in due time as long as I stay busy and my life is guided by 10 simple commandments.

Hope is an abstract of faith anyways but not having to "hope" for all things frees up a lot more time to just get on with the acts of living in the here and now. Faith can open doors for advancements of one's life that may not be seen by those without it.

Everyone needs some hope to but living solely on hope is like buying lottery tickets or endlessly chasing a carrot on a stick while Faith is the prize that can just be had anytime one so desires simply by acknowledging a greater force as your saviour.

I'm enjoying this sojourn on the long distance voyage of GOD-given life quite fine as it is, thank you very much. No one person will never be able see everything that is available to experience on this globe in a lifetime of trying. If there is an afterlife than what a great bonus round that would be too. I have faith in those possibilities and it sounds like you've had at least some thought about it...

I see much unhappiness and confusion and fear in some people which they don't even realize is actually controlling them.

Example; Having simple faith that "...this too shall pass..." could prevent a lot of suicides and road rage incidents etc.

Faith existed long before religion but religion does offer a vehicle to focus on developing one's faith.

Example. Christmas...

Regardless of what your opinions are on the validity of the Christmas celebrations; people are able to come a little bit closer together as communities and become more charitable during this time. We are able to collectively focus our best thoughts and find joy and comfort and good will even among those whose lives may have been less than charitable during the rest of the year and spread some of the good cheer that is created during this time.

This positive atmosphere of comfort, joy and cheer can be as tangibly experienced on any city street as well as in a church and is an example of the abstract of faith created by humans thinking alike, if only for a brief time each year.

This celebration serves to focus us all on the positive aspects of living a life with faith instead of dwelling in the negative.

Whether you believe or have faith in the life of Jesus or not; either way, it must have been a hell of an event that happened 2000 years ago if we are still talking and celebrating and debating about it today.

Faith is a personal thing; It's empowering and not meant to change what others think on the matter. Everyone can find it in their own way. Faith also empowers one to be less affected by the negative energies swirling all around us and which can be a real drag on one's soul.

I acknowledge my role in this life in my way and all others are free to acknowledge their roles in theirs. I have no agenda to change your's or anyone else's mind on the subject of my faith.

I have my faith; you and others may not. How wonderful for you!

It doesn't matter one way or another to me. I have no interest in trying to change one nameless, unknown person's opinions about faith here on an obscure internet forum, any more than they would have any right or reason to try to change mine.

Faith is an Input in/input out kinda thing.

In the end you get what you give and to me it feels wonderful...

Savvy???