There's probably no god.

[Corneliousrooster]

There's probably no 5vp.

[Mr. Personality]

There's probably no 5vp.

Then where did all the posts that make no sense come from?
5VP is the creator of these posts and does not like his existence denied.
You're going to the cabin in the woods.

[Corneliousrooster]

5vp did not create anything - 5vp does not exist. His cabin in the woods does not exist because he does not exist. Some "man" is claiming to be 5vp and his words to be the words of 5vp but any SANE person can see that the man being described to be 5vp is nothing like the writer of the words representing 5vp.

5vp is a figment of the writers imagination and he is trying to manifest 5vp on this forum by trying to lure believers of his existence into futile arguments that he cleverly baits his hook with and effortlessly attains many nibbles (but no bites as ALL seem to be aware of the mythic qualities of he who claims to be 5vp.

[Mr. Personality]

5VP's posts are the product of the great prophet Doug. Do not speak ill of 5VP, his wrath is not to be taken lightly. But 5VP is capable of love, and feels it for all the posts he has created. He gave his posts free will and will not take that away from them until the day he comes down to messageboard to fight the Atheist posts while his posts are taken in the rapture to an eternity in heaven.
Meanwhile, the atheist posts will be banished to the archives forever.
Amen.

[Born_again]

Meanwhile, the atheist posts will be banished to the archives forever.
Amen.

Does that mean our souls don't get a good centring out at the shack?

[Mr. Personality]

That is but one passage in the book of 5VP.
You will most certainly have your soul recentered in the cabin and the woods.
Amen

[Corneliousrooster]

That is but one passage in the book of 5VP.
You will most certainly have your soul recentered in the cabin and the woods.
Amen

You can't take the word of 5vp literal - the cabin in the woods is merely a metaphor for a place better than anywhere you or I may venture to (like 5vp heaven) - and the "recentering" is just a metaphor for 2 weeks of pay for use of facilities......

[Mr. Personality]

REPENT!
For the cabin in the woods is an awful place full of uncentered souls.
One does not want to tread there.

[zensiert]

Atheists are not born as atheists. They become so, usually as an adult, by living in a state of denial about the consequences of their free will actions and learn to use atheism as a "get out of jail free" card in order to rationalize these actions in their mind, much the same way a person with a bipolar disorder or drug addiction is unable to corelate their actions with the damages that these actions may have caused to others.

Atheists apparently learn morality by rote, the same way a dog learns not to crap on the living room rug. By being scolded and having their noses rubbed into their own mess. They live their lives as a selfish crapshoot without a thought to the mayhem this will cause to the rest of us.

Children are not born Christian any more than they are born permanent and life-long members of the Postal Worker's Union (as some comic once quipped). Human beings are born without any religious affiliation (or non-affiliation) whatsoever. They become affiliated (or remain un-affiliated) as they grow up and make conscious and directed decisions in their life choices.

This is easily proven by raising a child without any human contact whatsoever, completely and utterly isolated from the human race and any knowledge thereof, and then querying that person (once they grow up) what their belief structure is. If they profess a belief in a Christian god, I would be more than happy to convert. Unfortunately, even partial isolation from the human race ("wolf children") have clearly shown that they have absolutely no concept of a "higher power" once they finally come in contact with Humans. They are completely and utterly non-theistic (I wouldn't even use the term atheist, because being an atheist would require knowledge of religion and/or a higher power to begin with).

And do not lecture me on my own morality -- I certainly did NOT learn it by rote, like some dullard reciting psalms from a musty and irrelevant old religious tome. My morality is an inductive morality - I examine the world around me, use logic and reason to determine what is the correct action, and then use empathy and understanding to ensure that the resulting actions do as little harm as possible. My morals are not handed down from anyone, but are shaped by my own experiences and interactions with others. I do NOT need some book 20 centuries out of date to tell me how to live my life.

[averagejoe]

Atheists are not born as atheists. They become so, usually as an adult, by living in a state of denial about the consequences of their free will actions and learn to use atheism as a "get out of jail free" card in order to rationalize these actions in their mind, much the same way a person with a bipolar disorder or drug addiction is unable to corelate their actions with the damages that these actions may have caused to others.

Atheists apparently learn morality by rote, the same way a dog learns not to crap on the living room rug. By being scolded and having their noses rubbed into their own mess. They live their lives as a selfish crapshoot without a thought to the mayhem this will cause to the rest of us.

Children are not born Christian any more than they are born permanent and life-long members of the Postal Worker's Union (as some comic once quipped). Human beings are born without any religious affiliation (or non-affiliation) whatsoever. They become affiliated (or remain un-affiliated) as they grow up and make conscious and directed decisions in their life choices.

This is easily proven by raising a child without any human contact whatsoever, completely and utterly isolated from the human race and any knowledge thereof, and then querying that person (once they grow up) what their belief structure is. If they profess a belief in a Christian god, I would be more than happy to convert. Unfortunately, even partial isolation from the human race ("wolf children") have clearly shown that they have absolutely no concept of a "higher power" once they finally come in contact with Humans. They are completely and utterly non-theistic (I wouldn't even use the term atheist, because being an atheist would require knowledge of religion and/or a higher power to begin with).

And do not lecture me on my own morality -- I certainly did NOT learn it by rote, like some dullard reciting psalms from a musty and irrelevant old religious tome. My morality is an inductive morality - I examine the world around me, use logic and reason to determine what is the correct action, and then use empathy and understanding to ensure that the resulting actions do as little harm as possible. My morals are not handed down from anyone, but are shaped by my own experiences and interactions with others. I do NOT need some book 20 centuries out of date to tell me how to live my life.

The book your referring to "The Bible" is not out of date. The Bible is the history, laws and future of the Israelite peoples. The Bible was written for Israelite people. As Christ said, he has come only but for the lost sheep of Israel and just before his crucifixion. He told his disciples to only go to the lost sheep of Israel. Where did they go???? Scythian, Parthia, north Africa, Rome etc. You need to brush up on your reading. We can discuss this in much more detail if you like. As for your own morality, good for you if you think your a moral person. I'm sure Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Stalin, Mao, and other of there ilk thought they were moral to?

[Born_again]

He didn't say that it was out of date. He called it musty, old, religious and irrelevant.

BTW, I luurved your, "I'm sure Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Stalin, Mao, and other of there ilk thought they were moral to?" bit. Awesome!

[zensiert]

Atheists are not born as atheists. They become so, usually as an adult, by living in a state of denial about the consequences of their free will actions and learn to use atheism as a "get out of jail free" card in order to rationalize these actions in their mind, much the same way a person with a bipolar disorder or drug addiction is unable to corelate their actions with the damages that these actions may have caused to others.

Atheists apparently learn morality by rote, the same way a dog learns not to crap on the living room rug. By being scolded and having their noses rubbed into their own mess. They live their lives as a selfish crapshoot without a thought to the mayhem this will cause to the rest of us.

Children are not born Christian any more than they are born permanent and life-long members of the Postal Worker's Union (as some comic once quipped). Human beings are born without any religious affiliation (or non-affiliation) whatsoever. They become affiliated (or remain un-affiliated) as they grow up and make conscious and directed decisions in their life choices.

This is easily proven by raising a child without any human contact whatsoever, completely and utterly isolated from the human race and any knowledge thereof, and then querying that person (once they grow up) what their belief structure is. If they profess a belief in a Christian god, I would be more than happy to convert. Unfortunately, even partial isolation from the human race ("wolf children") have clearly shown that they have absolutely no concept of a "higher power" once they finally come in contact with Humans. They are completely and utterly non-theistic (I wouldn't even use the term atheist, because being an atheist would require knowledge of religion and/or a higher power to begin with).

And do not lecture me on my own morality -- I certainly did NOT learn it by rote, like some dullard reciting psalms from a musty and irrelevant old religious tome. My morality is an inductive morality - I examine the world around me, use logic and reason to determine what is the correct action, and then use empathy and understanding to ensure that the resulting actions do as little harm as possible. My morals are not handed down from anyone, but are shaped by my own experiences and interactions with others. I do NOT need some book 20 centuries out of date to tell me how to live my life.

The book your referring to "The Bible" is not out of date. The Bible is the history, laws and future of the Israelite peoples. The Bible was written for Israelite people. As Christ said, he has come only but for the lost sheep of Israel and just before his crucifixion. He told his disciples to only go to the lost sheep of Israel. Where did they go???? Scythian, Parthia, north Africa, Rome etc. You need to brush up on your reading. We can discuss this in much more detail if you like. As for your own morality, good for you if you think your a moral person. I'm sure Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Stalin, Mao, and other of there ilk thought they were moral to?

Morals are totally and utterly a byproduct of our current society and present times.

Two thousand years ago, about the time that Christ lived, it was common practice to practice birth control by murdering newborn infants. Is this moral to us? No. Definitely not. Even the most hardened Pro-Choice activist will clearly affirm that a newborn child is not to be murdered under any circumstances. However, back then it was a very moral thing to do, because to not control how many children you had was to invite poverty, starvation and destitution upon your family. Children were not considered to be "people" until well into their first year.

Besides, there are many, many "morals" in the Bible which are clearly vastly out of date and no longer applicable. For example, why do you not follow and obey the following gems?

Women Will Never Teach or Have Authority Over Men:
"I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." Timothy 2:11
Well, there goes the majority of Elementary school teachers!

Non-Virgins Are To Be Stoned (As in, with Rocks):
"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the *bleep* in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." (Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)
Hey, let's stone to death all non-virgins yet unmarried! Oh, wait-- that's about 90% of all our post-pubescent youth.

Divorce and Remarrying Are Both Considered Adultery:
"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)
Close to half of the Western World is guilty of this Sin. Are you?

Men With Wounded Penises or No Testicles Are Not Allowed in Church:
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
Had a circumcision as a purely medical procedure? Too bad, so sad. You are now one of the unsaved and unsaveable. Whoa, wait-- that includes me!!

If You Disobey God, You Will Eat Your Babies:
If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters."(Leviticus 26:27-30)
I have "disobeyed god" many times, and my kids are doing just fine.

If You Steal Something, or Sin in Any Way: Cut Off Your Hand:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into h**l, into the fire that never shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43)
Most Christian people that I know would be double amputees...

No *bleep* May Enter the Church:
"A b*****d shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:2)
Born to an unmarried mother (just like Mary, mother of Jesus)? Yup, once again you are one of the saved and unsaveable. You get a one-way ticket to hell without any say in the matter.

Women Must Cover Their Hair During Prayer:
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head..." 1 Corinthians 11:5
I don't even know to handle that one...

No Sex During A Woman's Period:
"...thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness." (Leviticus 18:19)
The squick factor is high with this one...

Cursing At Your Parents Warrants Death:
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
I think we're looking at the extinction of the species here... which may not be a bad thing, if the Bible is to be believed.

If Your Brother Dies, You Need to Bang His Wife:
"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother." (Mark 12:19)
SQUICK SQUICK SQUICK... Yeah, this is one "moral" I am NOT going to follow!!

Love Thy Neighbor. Seriously:
"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke [reason with] thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." (Leviticus 19: 17-18)
All hate speech is inherently anti-Christian... including hatred against Homosexuals and any desire to prevent them from obtaining equal rights. Your move, homophobic right-wing(nut) Christians.

Your Family Is Your Enemy and You Are All Competing for God's Love:
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:35-27)
According to The Bible every time a mother tells her child that family is the most important thing in the world, they're really condemning their child to an eternity of fire, brimstone and suffering.

A Woman's Punishment For Defending Her Husband = Cut Off Her Hand:
"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
Okay this one is insanely specific, which makes it that much more awesome. This probably NEVER happens... but if a faithful wife decided to defend her husband by grabbing a guy by his junk, anyone would have God's blessing to cut her hand off.

Giving Birth to a Daughter Makes You Unclean for 66 Days:
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)
People should hold signs that say "God Hates Women" because it really will be the most accurate Christian sign you could ever make.

Even A Look Counts As Adultery:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)
Most commercials on TV would now count as a Sinful act to observe. It's pretty safe to say every adult (and God knows, every teenager), has committed adultery by this standard.

Invite Your Attacker To Beat You More:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39)
Really? "Please sir, may I have another?" is a Biblical rule? I thought it was just an S&M command.

Give A Thief Your Belongings:
"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." (Matthew 5:40)
This passage feels like the one above, but it kind of has a twist. If someone steals something from you, you should hand over something else too. It's like a steal one-get one handed right to you offer.

Discipline Your Little Ones:
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137:9)
The Bible encourages disciplining your child... by throwing him against a stone wall, baby! This is a dangerous encouragement of violence against helpless children and if followed, could easily be used to justify parents who shake their kids to death to make them stop crying or for simply just child abuse.

Deformed People Cannot Approach God:
"For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." (Leviticus 21:18-21)
And how specific is this supposed to be? By what standard of perfection? Be too specific, and you eliminate pretty well the entire human race. I have some scars myself, which makes me deformed in some small way -- since I am deformed, I am unsaveable, and therefore cannot "approach God" by gaining admittance into Heaven. Thank God I am an Atheist.



If these are the "morals" that your precious God wants me to follow, then I want nothing to do with your God. Period. He sounds like one of the most misogynistic, narcissistic and downright evil beings that ever existed.

[fluffy]

I've never been at ease with the Bible being held forth as "the word of God". It was penned by a number of different human hands over a period of about two hundred years, and has been been subject to much editing and revision since.

[zensiert]

I've never been at ease with the Bible being held forth as "the word of God". It was penned by a number of different human hands over a period of about two hundred years, and has been been subject to much editing and revision since.

Have you seen translations of some of the truly older documents, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls? They make our current copies of the Bible seem like a 4,000 year long game of "telephone".

[OREZ]

The book your referring to "The Bible" is not out of date. The Bible is the history, laws and future of the Israelite peoples. The Bible was written for Israelite people. As Christ said, he has come only but for the lost sheep of Israel and just before his crucifixion. He told his disciples to only go to the lost sheep of Israel. Where did they go???? Scythian, Parthia, north Africa, Rome etc. You need to brush up on your reading. We can discuss this in much more detail if you like. As for your own morality, good for you if you think your a moral person. I'm sure Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Stalin, Mao, and other of there ilk thought they were moral to?

Good post.

Just one thing though; the way I read it, Paul went to "the nations." Paul was not one of the 12 disciples. He said that he had a new message which even "the prophets of old" hadn't known about and was given to him specifically for "the nations" and "believing Jews" since Israel by then had pretty much rejected Christ and His disciples. Him and Peter and the rest of the "early church" agreed that Paul would go to the gentiles while they would continue to preach to the Jews.