There's probably no god.

[Mr. Personality]

Morals are totally and utterly a byproduct of our current society and present times.

Two thousand years ago, about the time that Christ lived, it was common practice to practice birth control by murdering newborn infants. Is this moral to us? No. Definitely not. Even the most hardened Pro-Choice activist will clearly affirm that a newborn child is not to be murdered under any circumstances. However, back then it was a very moral thing to do, because to not control how many children you had was to invite poverty, starvation and destitution upon your family. Children were not considered to be "people" until well into their first year.

Besides, there are many, many "morals" in the Bible which are clearly vastly out of date and no longer applicable. For example, why do you not follow and obey the following gems?

I'm not Religious and I believe the bible is very outdated in a lot of spots, but I'm gonna take a shot at this anyway, for fun.

First of all, you're mixing two sets of laws/rules together, so let's separate them into their categories:

Non-Virgins Are To Be Stoned (As in, with Rocks):
"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the *bleep* in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." (Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)
Hey, let's stone to death all non-virgins yet unmarried! Oh, wait-- that's about 90% of all our post-pubescent youth.

Here's where I read the Old Testament as more of a history of the peoples. Many cultures have for centuries treated unmarried non-virgins very poorly. I don't think singling out the bible for this is fair.

Men With Wounded Penises or No Testicles Are Not Allowed in Church:
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
Had a circumcision as a purely medical procedure? Too bad, so sad. You are now one of the unsaved and unsaveable. Whoa, wait-- that includes me!!

Again, this is an Israelite law. As such, circumcision is mandatory at birth and probably wouldn't fall under this. Some sort of horrible industrial accident would though.

If You Disobey God, You Will Eat Your Babies:
If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters."(Leviticus 26:27-30)
I have "disobeyed god" many times, and my kids are doing just fine.

This one is a little weird for sure. It starts off with "If in spite of this" what is "this"?
Regardless, it's weird.

No *bleep* May Enter the Church:
"A b*****d shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:2)
Born to an unmarried mother (just like Mary, mother of Jesus)? Yup, once again you are one of the saved and unsaveable. You get a one-way ticket to hell without any say in the matter.

This one can definitely be filed under "history" and little more. This was the law of the times, that's all.

No Sex During A Woman's Period:
"...thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness." (Leviticus 18:19)
The squick factor is high with this one...

"History"

Cursing At Your Parents Warrants Death:
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
I think we're looking at the extinction of the species here... which may not be a bad thing, if the Bible is to be believed.

I'm not sure, does "curse" mean the same thing in this passage as it does now (swearing)? Or is it something harsher? Maybe swearing was considered a much bigger offense then it is now. Most of the world has harsher laws than we are used to here, it stands to reason that historically people would also have different value systems nowadays. Many things we consider very harsh penalties for minor or non-offenses, but if an Israelite from these times showed up today, what would he say about our laws and moral values?

Love Thy Neighbor. Seriously:
"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke [reason with] thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." (Leviticus 19: 17-18)
All hate speech is inherently anti-Christian... including hatred against Homosexuals and any desire to prevent them from obtaining equal rights. Your move, homophobic right-wing(nut) Christians.

I agree completely. Couldn't have said it better myself.

A Woman's Punishment For Defending Her Husband = Cut Off Her Hand:
"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
Okay this one is insanely specific, which makes it that much more awesome. This probably NEVER happens... but if a faithful wife decided to defend her husband by grabbing a guy by his junk, anyone would have God's blessing to cut her hand off.

This one has made me giggle for years. However, I would put it under "historical law" more than anything. Looking at how "God" (the people) seemed to think at the time, I wouldn't doubt if this was equal to adultery. It pretty much takes away any defense of a woman grabbing a guy's junk unless it's her husband. This is probably the most extreme example of a reason to grab a guy's junk, and it's not allowed.

Giving Birth to a Daughter Makes You Unclean for 66 Days:
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)
People should hold signs that say "God Hates Women" because it really will be the most accurate Christian sign you could ever make.

Again, I'd file this under "historical law". Let's be real here, whether God came up with them or not, these were the laws of the Israelites. The claim is they come straight from God, but I can claim the movie White Chicks came from God and if they found it 3000 years later, they might believe I meant it.

Discipline Your Little Ones:
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137:9)
The Bible encourages disciplining your child... by throwing him against a stone wall, baby! This is a dangerous encouragement of violence against helpless children and if followed, could easily be used to justify parents who shake their kids to death to make them stop crying or for simply just child abuse.

Another "Historical law".

Deformed People Cannot Approach God:
"For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." (Leviticus 21:18-21)
And how specific is this supposed to be? By what standard of perfection? Be too specific, and you eliminate pretty well the entire human race. I have some scars myself, which makes me deformed in some small way -- since I am deformed, I am unsaveable, and therefore cannot "approach God" by gaining admittance into Heaven. Thank God I am an Atheist.

Another "law". Jesus proved that there is salvation for the deformed and diseased. When Jesus came along, so the story as I understand it goes, he die to save all. Up until that point, the Jews were God's people and the Old Testament is relative to them and only them (if Western culture had taken to Ba'al worship, you can bet we'd be having this same discussion about "God").Jesus death not only provided the "pure blood" needed for the proper sacrifice to save humanity, it also negated the Jews as "God's people". It also negated the Mosaic laws, to a point. Eating shellfish, pork and other previously "dirty" meat was now okay. Yes, Jesus did preach the importance of the Ten Commandments, but the laws themselves as laws of God no longer applied, what Jesus set out did.

Women Will Never Teach or Have Authority Over Men:
"I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." Timothy 2:11
Well, there goes the majority of Elementary school teachers!

You're completely right about this.

Divorce and Remarrying Are Both Considered Adultery:
"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)
Close to half of the Western World is guilty of this Sin. Are you?

Close to half? No one on Earth is innocent of "sin". This rule is the reason for the "til death do you part" part of the wedding vows. As I understand it, the only reason for remarrying is A-spouse dies or B-You Ex-spouse remarries first. Not to mention that many, many Christian based religions allow divorce (some even let the gays in )

If You Steal Something, or Sin in Any Way: Cut Off Your Hand:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into h**l, into the fire that never shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43)
Most Christian people that I know would be double amputees...

If I'm not mistaken, this is more of a parable related to good association. It's just woded harshly to get the point of how important good association is.

Women Must Cover Their Hair During Prayer:
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head..." 1 Corinthians 11:5
I don't even know to handle that one...

Yeah, this seems like a tradition that is outdated as all hell.

If Your Brother Dies, You Need to Bang His Wife:
"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother." (Mark 12:19)
SQUICK SQUICK SQUICK... Yeah, this is one "moral" I am NOT going to follow!!

Hmmm...

Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21 The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22 In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23 At the resurrection[c] whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?” Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Pretty much puts that to bed. It's actually a repeating of the Israelite law. I'd say Jesus question of "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?" (I suspect you got this list from an Atheist website?)

Your Family Is Your Enemy and You Are All Competing for God's Love:
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:35-27)
According to The Bible every time a mother tells her child that family is the most important thing in the world, they're really condemning their child to an eternity of fire, brimstone and suffering.

Not quite. Loosely translated it means you love God more then anyone else. It says nothing of telling your child they are the most important thing in the world. It says love no one more than me.

Even A Look Counts As Adultery:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)
Most commercials on TV would now count as a Sinful act to observe. It's pretty safe to say every adult (and God knows, every teenager), has committed adultery by this standard.

You can observe all you want, don't lust after a woman other than your wife.

Invite Your Attacker To Beat You More:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39)
Really? "Please sir, may I have another?" is a Biblical rule? I thought it was just an S&M command.

It's an example of forgiveness, one of Jesus's most basic teachings.

Give A Thief Your Belongings:
"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." (Matthew 5:40)
This passage feels like the one above, but it kind of has a twist. If someone steals something from you, you should hand over something else too. It's like a steal one-get one handed right to you offer.

This passage should feel like the last one. It's the very next sentence in the book. Again, this is about forgiveness.

I'm not trying to take anything away from what you're saying. The Bible is, in fact, outdated as all hell. Many of the lessons taught, though, can be very important. The Bible is half history lesson, half morality lesson. When it is taken as such, a lot of good can be pulled out of it.

[steven lloyd]

The probability there is no God is exactly equal to the probability there is something - possibly responsible for our existence, possibly responsible for things we haven't even started thinking about yet - that we can call God. What is God ? Well, it would be my personal belief that some posters here claiming to be some sort of experts would be the least accurate in their assumptions. So why doesn't God come out a and say here I am ? Maybe there's some different kind of plan. Maybe the question is "God, I am human, I am flawed, I am asking you to come to me and say here I am"

This last stuff works. However, it requires real open-mindedness and a significant degree of humility. It is possible to achieve conscious contact with the shared cosmic consciousness as explained by Jung (and others). There is really more going on than those who want to just dismiss. This isn’t about traditional religions – particularly in this day. It is possible to become in tune which something much bigger than yourself. It takes some practice in achieving the psychological state, but at least as importantly it takes a willingness to accept you didn’t already know everything.

[5VP]

The probability there is no God is exactly equal to the probability there is something - possibly responsible for our existence, possibly responsible for things we haven't even started thinking about yet - that we can call God. What is God ? Well, it would be my personal belief that some posters here claiming to be some sort of experts would be the least accurate in their assumptions. So why doesn't God come out a and say here I am ? Maybe there's some different kind of plan. Maybe the question is "God, I am human, I am flawed, I am asking you to come to me and say here I am"

This last stuff works. However, it requires real open-mindedness and a significant degree of humility. It is possible to achieve conscious contact with the shared cosmic consciousness as explained by Jung (and others). There is really more going on than those who want to just dismiss. This isn’t about traditional religions – particularly in this day. It is possible to become in tune which something much bigger than yourself. It takes some practice in achieving the psychological state, but at least as importantly it takes a willingness to accept you didn’t already know everything.

[mammamoon]

Infinate love is the only truth, everything else is an illusion.

[razzledazzle]

Holding the church accountable?

Sep 14, 2011 / 5:00 pm

Clergy sex abuse victims upset that no high-ranking Roman Catholic leaders have been prosecuted for sheltering guilty priests have turned to the International Criminal Court, seeking an investigation of the Pope and top Vatican cardinals for possible crimes against humanity. The Vatican called the move a "ludicrous publicity stunt."

The Centre for Constitutional Rights, a New York-based non-profit legal group, requested the inquiry Tuesday on behalf of the U.S.-based Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, arguing that the global church has maintained a "long-standing and pervasive system of sexual violence" despite promises to swiftly oust predators.

The Vatican's U.S. lawyer, Jeffrey Lena, called the complaint a "ludicrous publicity stunt and a misuse of international judicial processes" in a statement to The Associated Press.

The complaint names Pope Benedict XVI, partly in his former role as leader of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which in 2001 explicitly gained responsibility for overseeing abuse cases; Cardinal William Levada, who now leads that office; Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican secretary of state under Pope John Paul II; and Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who now holds that post.

Attorneys for the victims say rape, sexual violence and torture are considered a crime against humanity as described in the international treaty that spells out the court's mandate. The complaint also accuses Vatican officials of creating policies that perpetuated the damage, constituting an attack against a civilian population.

Barbara Blaine, president of the Survivors Network, said going to the court was a last resort.

"We have tried everything we could think of to get them to stop and they won't," she told The Associated Press. "If the pope wanted to, he could take dramatic action at any time that would help protect children today and in the future, and he refuses to take the action."

The odds against the court opening an investigation are enormous. The prosecutor has received nearly 9,000 independent proposals for inquiries since 2002, when the court was created as the world's only permanent war crimes tribunal, and has never opened a formal investigation based solely on such a request.

Also, the Holy See is not a member state of the court, meaning prosecutors have no automatic jurisdiction there, although the complaint covers alleged abuse in countries around the world, many of which do recognize the court's jurisdiction.

____

Centre for constitutional Rights: http://ccrjustice.org/

[sobrohusfat]

wrong thread Razz?

Although i guess maybe the Roman Church could be credited with the dubious distinction of having generated more atheists than anything else in history?

[steven lloyd]

wrong thread Razz?

Definitely a very valid and relevant topic worthy of discussion but completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

[razzledazzle]

wrong thread Razz?

Definitely a very valid and relevant topic worthy of discussion but completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

I think it is, just proves to me that even the Vatican and clergy do not believe in a god, or they would not hide all info.

[5VP]

wrong thread Razz?

Although i guess maybe the Roman Church could be credited with the dubious distinction of having generated more atheists than anything else in history?

I would agree that the RCC is an integral component of the "Great Babylon" of Revelation...

[Mr. Personality]

wrong thread Razz?

Definitely a very valid and relevant topic worthy of discussion but completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

I think it is, just proves to me that even the Vatican and clergy do not believe in a god, or they would not hide all info.

It proves that a church is just an organization run by imperfect people.
It speaks to Religion.
It says nothing of God.

wrong thread Razz?

Although i guess maybe the Roman Church could be credited with the dubious distinction of having generated more atheists than anything else in history?

I would agree that the RCC is an integral component of the "Great Babylon" of Revelation...

That's the first thing you've said in this thread that makes sense.

[5VP]

That's the first thing you've said in this thread that makes sense.

I refer you to your signature for the appropriate rebut to this ...

[Mr. Personality]

Well it's my opinion, though I'm sure most would disagree with me and say it's as non-sensical as everything else you've written.

[razzledazzle]

Well it's my opinion, though I'm sure most would disagree with me and say it's as non-sensical as everything else you've written.

Go here and learn something http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Prayer/index.aspx

[Mr. Personality]

Well it's my opinion, though I'm sure most would disagree with me and say it's as non-sensical as everything else you've written.

Go here and learn something http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Prayer/index.aspx

Learn what?

In the midst of an economic downturn people turn to a multitude of methods to create financial breakthroughs in their life. Prayer has become a big part of the methodology as seen in the Church of England's creation of a new prayer for the current financial situation . Beliefnet has also seen an exponential increase in the number of finance related prayer requests.

Please join our community members as they share their prayer requests for financial breakthrough.

Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Prayer/ ... z1Ycc3Y5B8

that people out there think praying about the economy is going to fix it?

[razzledazzle]

I don't pray, i ask the Universe, because the Universe holds all the power