Tempers flare over prayer in schools [Canada]

[GordonH]

You don't push your beliefs on me, in kind I will not be forced push them back. Oops sorry I should have said... I will not push mine on you.


Sorry everyone has the right to his or her beliefs that should never change.

[steven lloyd]

How is respecting beliefs basic human dignity?

You don't have to respect the belief, however, respecting a person's right to have their own belief is basic human decency - as long as those beliefs are not transcribed into actions which infringe upon the basic rights of others.

For example, ...

How about existing in your society without asking for special treatment that is specifically required for your specific belief system? that sounds decent.....

I agree, this does also seem decent

[Tacklewasher]

How is respecting beliefs basic human dignity?

You don't have to respect the belief, however, respecting a person's right to have their own belief is basic human decency -

Which is completely different from what I am saying. The post said that it was basic human decency to respect the belief. The post was wrong.

as long as those beliefs are not transcribed into actions which infringe upon the basic rights of others.

For example, ...

How about existing in your society without asking for special treatment that is specifically required for your specific belief system? that sounds decent.....

I agree, this does also seem decent

Not gonna happen though.

[Born_again]

In my experience, when someone(or an organisation) demands automatic respect for their beliefs, and/or the practise of their beliefs, they are actually demanding a lot more than respect. They are demanding immunity from satire, criticism and in some deserving cases, mockery. What Mr. Respect-demander is actually after is deference. Pure and simple, he wants an entitled status, a privileged stature as a perk of their belief.
How many times do you hear cries for respect, as opposed to pleas for tolerance? That's right, most of 'em don't give a *bleep* for mere tolerance, but boy do they crave unmerited "respect"!
Now, how about the funny side to all of this deferential seeking self-aggrandisement? Just look at how one group of 'believers' dishes out "respect" to others of hybrid beliefs:

"We want respect for all religions. We want the Toronto District School Board to be consistent and stop discriminating [against] one religion over others," said Tony Costa, who is part of a multi-faith coalition opposed to Islamic prayer services in public schools.

Now that's funny!

Sad bunnies.

[SHOZDIJIJI]

This is stupid . How about we all respect each others beliefs .

Is there any particular reason why we should automatically respect the beliefs of others? Do beliefs hold some kind of favoured or 'reverential' status for respect?

You don't have to agree with them, but you should respect them
That's just basic human decency.

Exactly ..

[Born_again]

There is no "exactly" about it. If anything, what you are demanding is an affront to human decency.

If you were to ask me to honour the fact that you are entitled to your beliefs, then I would be accommodating, but automatically respect them? No, it doesn't work that way for grown-ups. Sorry.

[fluffy]

There is no "exactly" about it. If anything, what you are demanding is an affront to human decency.

If you were to ask me to honour the fact that you are entitled to your beliefs, then I would be accommodating, but automatically respect them? No, it doesn't work that way for grown-ups. Sorry.

I think we're arguing the language here, but the principle is the same for both of us. You have a right to believe whatever you like, and I respect that. I hope you respect the thought that I too, am entitled to believe what I like and am by no means obligated to give any heed to those who wish to govern what I believe according to their values.

I also maintain that a public school system is no place to start offering special consideration based on religious beliefs, that's a can of worms that can lead no where but bad

[Born_again]

There is no "exactly" about it. If anything, what you are demanding is an affront to human decency.

If you were to ask me to honour the fact that you are entitled to your beliefs, then I would be accommodating, but automatically respect them? No, it doesn't work that way for grown-ups. Sorry.

I think we're arguing the language here, but the principle is the same for both of us. You have a right to believe whatever you like, and I respect that. I hope you respect the thought that I too, am entitled to believe what I like and am by no means obligated to give any heed to those who wish to govern what I believe according to their values.

I also maintain that a public school system is no place to start offering special consideration based on religious beliefs, that's a can of worms that can lead no where but bad

I am in agreement with you, fluffy, but I was directly addressing the following:

This is stupid . How about we all respect each others beliefs .

Is there any particular reason why we should automatically respect the beliefs of others? Do beliefs hold some kind of favoured or 'reverential' status for respect?

You don't have to agree with them, but you should respect them
That's just basic human decency.

Exactly ..

As you can see we weren't discussing respecting a person's right to a belief. I make a distinction between a persons right to a belief, and that persons belief. If SHOZDIJIJI was referring to other peoples rights to having beliefs, then he/she should have said so. Mr. P made it clear that he was referring to the beliefs themselves and not the right of belief, by saying you don't have to agree with them. There is no agreeing or disagreeing with a persons right to a belief, ergo, Mr.P was talking about the belief itself. SHOZDIJIJI confirmed my original interpretation by saying, "Exactly" to Mr.P's response.

[JLives]

School is a place for academics period. They can believe whatever they want and pray all day long in their head. Group prayer has always come across to me as a marketing thing to enlist more loyal followers who want to belong somewhere. Public schools must remain secular so all students are on equal terms and can focus on what is important - getting educated. Keep your religion in your church and out of the schools. If you MUST make your kids practice your beliefs during school, take them to a private school.

[warden]

Valley Park Middle School opened up cafeteria space for the Friday service three years ago after it noticed that Muslim students who left to attend midday services at a nearby mosque often failed to return to classes.

I don't understand why the school took what appears to me to be a simple disciplinary issue and made it a religious one?

The kids aren't coming back to school when they're required to, i.e. they're skipping classes. Seems to me, the first few times they do it, they get detention. If they continue to do it, they get a suspension. If it continues after that, they get expelled.

I mean, if it was a kid that was going home for lunch and not coming back, that's how it would be handled wouldn't it?

Go attend the services at your religious institution, but come back to school after. Seems simple to me.

[grammafreddy]

Hmmmmm ........... been doing some thinking (dangerous, I know )

Homeschooling is one way to ensure your child gets the education you want him/her to have in areas that are the most important to you. Of course, basic subjects and standards must be taught and attained. With so many families having both parents working, sometimes homeschooling is not an option even though it might be the first choice.

I am wondering if this is an opportunity for a "schooling co-operative" where perhaps four or five families group-educate their kids based on common values and common interests or on common desired results in certain topics.

IF governments were to directly give the education money allotment to each family instead of to school boards or school districts, those funds could pay to hire a private teacher to teach their children. The schoolroom could be in one family's home or in a rented premise - whatever works for them according to their budgets. The premise is that this sets up a small private school tailored to like-minded parents.

Always keeping in mind the basic education requirements, these schools could be arts based or science based or *shudder* green based or sports based or whatever the parents desired. Nothing says basic subjects can't be taught utilizing specialties as the medium for education where they fit.

Most private schools are religion-based not objective based or topic based. There's no alternatives at this time for people who can't homeschool but don't like the public melting pot of teaching to the lowest common denominator or to averages and who are not part of any religion.

It's just a thought. Feedback might be interesting ... I think I will start a new thread for this topic ... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=34776

[Oxl3y]

School is a place for academics period. They can believe whatever they want and pray all day long in their head. Group prayer has always come across to me as a marketing thing to enlist more loyal followers who want to belong somewhere. Public schools must remain secular so all students are on equal terms and can focus on what is important - getting educated. Keep your religion in your church and out of the schools. If you MUST make your kids practice your beliefs during school, take them to a private school.

I disagree and I am probably the least religious person ever.

There is a big difference making all the children stand in the morning to say the lords prayer and just offering the Muslim children a place to pray. I'm not sure about it but don't Muslims have to pray at certain times of the day, I know I've seen a guy pull his car over to the side of the road to do it before so it must be important to them. Christianity doesn't have anything that strict so frankly comparing both activities in school is an unfair comparison.

[fluffy]

But where does it stop? If our right to religious freedom means that any and all public facilities should be required to make concessions to every religion at their request do we do just that? How many religions are out there and what would this entail? This is a real can of worms, the best solution is to keep the playing field level and keep them all off of school property.

[Oxl3y]

But where does it stop? If our right to religious freedom means that any and all public facilities should be required to make concessions to every religion at their request do we do just that? How many religions are out there and what would this entail? This is a real can of worms, the best solution is to keep the playing field level and keep them all off of school property.

I honestly don't think there are that many concessions that you would have to make... Special diets can bring food from home, ritualistic slaughter of animals sorry health codes don't allow it, ceremonial daggers sorry no weapons and your standard religions well they can do their prayers at home with their family. Muslims (and again I am sorry if I have the wrong religion altogether) are supposed to face east and pray at a certain time of day that is hardly an unreasonable request.

[fluffy]

But you can't really consider each request as an individual issue can you? If you make concessions to one religion you pretty much open the door to them all.