Tempers flare over prayer in schools [Canada]

[Oxl3y]

But you can't really consider each request as an individual issue can you? If you make concessions to one religion you pretty much open the door to them all.

I know what your saying but I just don't see it being that much of an issue. Can you think of other religious activities that have to be done at a certain time every day? And of those (because I'm sure some will come up) are they something that can reasonably be done at school without interfering with other students studies?

[fluffy]

In this day and age I just can't see anything other than a totally level playing field getting the nod, and the only way from keeping the thing from getting out of control in a hurry is to nip it in the bud. Aside from my philosophical stand of keeping the public school system as completely neutral territory (that's why we don't do the lord's prayer any more) it's also a practical thing. As soon as you let one in, you have to let them all in, so might just as well keep them all out.

[Oxl3y]

In this day and age I just can't see anything other than a totally level playing field getting the nod, and the only way from keeping the thing from getting out of control in a hurry is to nip it in the bud. Aside from my philosophical stand of keeping the public school system as completely neutral territory (that's why we don't do the lord's prayer any more) it's also a practical thing. As soon as you let one in, you have to let them all in, so might just as well keep them all out.

But the lords prayer is NOT reasonable. That is forcing everyone to participate in a prayer of a religion that is not their own. Also the lords prayer does not have to be read every morning at least not at school it could easily be done at that students home. These students are asking for a quiet place to pray individually because their religion requires a prayer at that time.

[grammafreddy]

These students are asking for a quiet place to pray individually because their religion requires a prayer at that time.

What exactly are these certain times they are required to pray?

[wthwyt]

These students are asking for a quiet place to pray individually because their religion requires a prayer at that time.

What exactly are these certain times they are required to pray?

GF it would appear only 1 (except from mid-Fall to early Spring could be 3 then) of the 5 daily prayer of Muslims would happen while at school. If that is the religion being mention here. Muslim prayer times

As mentioned earlier......all or none.

[Oxl3y]

Who cares if they only do it once a day? Their religion requires them to pray at noon everyday why is that so unreasonable to you people? Give me one example, JUST ONE, of another religion that has such strict policies and we can discuss if it would open the door for other religions demanding more of a school. Religion is kept out of school for politically correct reasons, to not make kids that believe different things feel uncomfortable by being forced to participate. Giving these kids a place to quietly pray essentially does that...it allows the people of a certain faith to do their noon prayer away from other students.

[fluffy]

Giving these kids a place to quietly pray essentially does that...it allows the people of a certain faith to do their noon prayer away from other students.

Sure, just give them a place off school property. If we were to make this special concession for Muslim prayer times, how long do you think it would take for an endless lineup of special interest groups to form, and on what grounds would we refuse their requests having already granted one to someone else? It's a hornet's nest.

("Thanks for the prayer room, we really appreciate it. Oh, by the way, prayer time requires ritual foot-washing, can you call a plumber please?")

[grammafreddy]

Who cares if they only do it once a day? Their religion requires them to pray at noon everyday why is that so unreasonable to you people? Give me one example, JUST ONE, of another religion that has such strict policies and we can discuss if it would open the door for other religions demanding more of a school. Religion is kept out of school for politically correct reasons, to not make kids that believe different things feel uncomfortable by being forced to participate. Giving these kids a place to quietly pray essentially does that...it allows the people of a certain faith to do their noon prayer away from other students.

Noooooooooooooo ... it's not at noon every day. It fluctuates with the sunrise and sunset. If it falls during class instructional time then those students miss their lessons - and some don't come back after.

I guess truant officers went bye-bye when we weren't allowed to fail children, hurt their poor little feelings, damage to their tender psyches and all that bull.

There is no bloody way religions of any kind should be allowed in the public school system. Period. Full stop.

Cripes, there's some religions that don't allow their kids to participate in making gifts for Mother's and Father's Day - and the schools have to find something to occupy those little darlings while the others are doing that. What stupidity!

[Glacier]

Noooooooooooooo ... it's not at noon every day. It fluctuates with the sunrise and sunset. If it falls during class instructional time then those students miss their lessons - and some don't come back after.

Simple solution, just send all the Muslim kids to school Iqaluit for the Winter. No sun rise; no need to pray.

[Type_O]

A religion that requires menstrating girls to inform their imam of their "condition" so they may participate in prayer only from the back of the assembly is not only dicrimantory, is dangerously toying with misogyny, and is being allowed in a Canadian Public School System?

[Occam]

Seems to me that 'respecting beliefs' is a social convention which allows us to retain some sense of dignity in spite of having to leave poisonous influences in our own backyards. Being honest can cause many problems in the short term, and when it comes to religion we seem to prefer to sweep things under the rug.

If we were to encounter an adult that believed in santa claus would we 'respect his belief', or ridicule him? The latter seems more likely, although perhaps we ought to explain his delusion to him using reason. If that's not too impolite. When such people fail to respond to reason it is common practice to refer them to 'help', that is to say someone who specializes in changing another's beliefs.

If we were to encounter a thousand adults who believed in santa claus we might give them cult status.

If we were to encounter a million adults who believed in santa claus we would give them tax-free status, and teach our children to pretend that it's okay to believe in santa claus when around these people.

Of course we only pretend to respect beliefs (living creatures deserve respect, let's work on that first) when we have to deal with the people who hold such beliefs. How many readers respect Odin, Freya and their kids? Ra? Jove? It's pretty common for us as a society to ridicule the beliefs of others:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... VolcanoGod

Look at the 'Examples:' the concept as viewed through 'civilized' media. "Parodied...", "Also parodied...", "Mocked..." didn't have to look far for that. I googled 'volcano god', and the first link I chose was the seventh one down on the first page... and the above quotes are from the FIRST THREE EXAMPLES.

Don't kid yourselves, 'respect for other people's beliefs' is a chickenscratch excuse for not sorting out some really awkward problems in our society. I'll not accuse any one religion of being an awkward problem here, however I'm sure that anyone who would assert that interactions between the various tax-free status religions are not an awkward problem would look very foolish indeed. It is something that ought to be of high priority, but the myth of respect for beliefs actually exacerbates the problem. This myth makes even the message of those who are willing to work the problems out with those of other beliefs seem contrary to what is polite.

I would suggest that pumping someone's stomach is not being 'polite' to them. Some might find that such a situation is 'undignified'. When the stomach is full of poison, pumping the stomach is often a necessary way to rid ourselves of that which would do us harm. Let's not force-pump people's stomachs - but let's not badmouth the pump, or the doctor who operates it. Such characterizations might prevent people from going to the hospital in the first place.