Atheism and Agnosticsm

[Mr Danksworth]

And what of those who claim to have knowledge of other gods? Hindus for example. Are they being misled? Is their experience just as valid as yours?

[Captain Awesome]

Not that while ago, atheism was considered a form of mental illness.

[Mr Danksworth]

^
*citation needed*

[Hmmm]

Does it only work if you pray to Jesus, or can you go for any other pantheon? There's lots of gods and goddesses out there.

The basic requirement is sincerity, if you use God as a name, you would be safe. I believe, there are supernatural powers at work that prevent people from knowing God and that only God can prevail over these and show himself to you. I've seen, experienced and know of many examples personally of this.

To be honest with you, I doubt your sincerity very much as I'm familiar with your previous posts, however, if my explanation of this topic helps you or others, that's all I'm hoping for.

[fluffy]

To drag this back towards the topic, if I'm interpreting the dictionary definitions correctly, atheism bears with it a commitment to disbelief, a sureness in the idea that there is no God. When stacked up against agnosticism you could say that atheists know there is no God, and agnostics don't know one way or the other, by definition. Atheism is a closed minded outlook, by definition there is no room to keep your options open, as soon as you do you're into agnostic territory. The whole agnostic atheist and atheist agnostic thing is a corruption of the original intent of the terminology, like saying something is blackish white. You either know or you don't know.

[cliffy1]

Not that while ago, atheism was considered a form of mental illness.

So is being gay by the Christian fundies.

[Mr Danksworth]

The basic requirement is sincerity, if you use God as a name, you would be safe. I believe, there are supernatural powers at work that prevent people from knowing God and that only God can prevail over these and show himself to you. I've seen, experienced and know of many examples personally of this.

You seem to have missed my point. I have no doubt that some people personally experience what one might call 'divinity'. My question was what about people from other religions outside of Abrahamic/Judeo-christian beliefs claiming an experience with the divine. Hindus, pagans, wiccans, indigineous people all claim experiences with the divine. Are they mistaken? What if the god they call on is Vishnu, Persephone orany of the other multitude of deities that exist. Does it still work?

Back on topic:

Fluffy, I think you would be hard pressed to find a self-identifying athiest who wouldn't change their views if the right evidence was presented.

Captain Awesome:
Still waiting for those citations...

[cliffy1]

To drag this back towards the topic, if I'm interpreting the dictionary definitions correctly, atheism bears with it a commitment to disbelief, a sureness in the idea that there is no God. When stacked up against agnosticism you could say that atheists know there is no God, and agnostics don't know one way or the other, by definition. Atheism is a closed minded outlook, by definition there is no room to keep your options open, as soon as you do you're into agnostic territory. The whole agnostic atheist and atheist agnostic thing is a corruption of the original intent of the terminology, like saying something is blackish white. You either know or you don't know.

I don't feel that I fit into any of these categories. I don't believe in a god out there that is separate from me. So I am not a theist or a deist. But I believe in the divine, the creative force present in all things. I believe that we create ourselves and our realities and therefore we are our own gods. I refer to myself as a spiritual anarchist with a following of one: me.

Those who are into the control game, use religion and external gods to keep us from expressing our full potential. It frightens them that we might wake up and throw off our shackles and stop obeying our masters who lord over us.

[WhatThe]

Supernatural or different plane of existence? God or non corporeal life form?
Atheism, to me, speaks to non existence of an entity that is omnipotent, that we were created for him, to do his bidding and be ok with being judged, That doesn't mean though, a non corporeal entity didn't start life on earth.

[Mr Danksworth]

Cliffy, you should look into gnosticism. Your parameters of belief are similar. The basics: god is unknowable and does nothing for or against humanity. Creates Sophia (wisdom), thinks she's smart, tries to create, fails, creates the demiugre (Yahweh, abrahamic god), imperfect demi-god wreaks havok on creation. In this narrative, the god of the desert is actually evil, petulant, possesive and controlling. It is only through realizing that the divine is within that one can escape the god of Abraham's material games.

Read the Hymn of the Pearl for some insight.

[Mr Danksworth]

Supernatural or different plane of existence? God or non corporeal life form?
Atheism, to me, speaks to non existence of an entity that is omnipotent, that we were created for him, to do his bidding and be ok with being judged, That doesn't mean though, a non corporeal entity didn't start life on earth.

I think life on earth developed randomly and naturally according to the laws of our reality. We don't know all of the laws that rule here, but we are doing a decent job of trying to find out. As far as 'non-corpeal' entites go, the very term is too open ended to even begin ascribing such things as the beginings of life...so it's another null point, imagination and speculation. Fun mental exercises at best.

[cliffy1]

Cliffy, you should look into gnosticism. Your parameters of belief are similar. The basics: god is unknowable and does nothing for or against humanity. Creates Sophia (wisdom), thinks she's smart, tries to create, fails, creates the demiugre (Yahweh, abrahamic god), imperfect demi-god wreaks havok on creation. In this narrative, the god of the desert is actually evil, petulant, possesive and controlling. It is only through realizing that the divine is within that one can escape the god of Abraham's material games.

Read the Hymn of the Pearl for some insight.

I spent 40 years studying a lot of religions, spirituality, philosophy, metaphysics, quantum physics, etc. I am very familiar with gnosticism. I also like Zen and native spirituality. But in the end, what I know for sure, is what I have experienced.

Everybody has their own journey to take and it is up to them to live it according to what they hold true, whatever that may be.

[steven lloyd]

I spent 40 years studying a lot of religions, spirituality, philosophy, metaphysics, quantum physics, etc. I am very familiar with gnosticism. I also like Zen and native spirituality. But in the end, what I know for sure, is what I have experienced. Everybody has their own journey to take and it is up to them to live it according to what they hold true, whatever that may be.

I have done similar. At the same time I have been a keen student of science and astronomy, astrophysics, quantum physics, etc. I have studied alternate states of consciousness at the university level - and on top of all that I have experienced consciousness contact with something that has made me feel completely comfortable and at peace. I’m not going to go further into that. Why would I here ?

I am not concerned about others efforts (or lack of) to make consciousness contact with God – or whatever you want to call it (collective universal consciousness? – who cares?). I also recognize that there are people who completely shut that possibility off as impossible. And yet these same people seem to be able to embrace the miracles of science. Quite the paradox.

[Nom_de_Plume]

Everybody has their own journey to take and it is up to them to live it according to what they hold true, whatever that may be.

Exactly, people maybe believe or not believe whatever they wish, the only time I take issue with it, is when their belief system encroaches on another's ability to live their lives the way they choose, within the boundaries of the law of course.
Laws, public education, government, etc. should be secular and not slanted towards any religious belief system. Religion should be kept in the home and the temples, mosques, cathedrals, churches (whatever one calls their religious clubhouse).
That's not to say one's religious club cannot go out into the community and "do good", or even try to "spread the word" but not if that activity is hurtful to others who don't hold those same beliefs. No one should have to live in fear that just by practising a certain religion or even not belonging to a religion, will cause them to be subjected to ostracism or acrimony by their neighbours. We need to learn how to coexist with each other.
Nearly all the religions of the world are based on a basic principal of peace and love, believe it or not.

[fluffy]

I also recognize that there are people who completely shut that possibility off as impossible. And yet these same people seem to be able to embrace the miracles of science. Quite the paradox.

That's what leads me to the thought that some people choose the label "atheist" not to represent a lack of spiritual beliefs, but as a rebellion against religion.

Nearly all the religions of the world are based on a basic principal of peace and love, believe it or not.

I agree wholeheartedly, I would go further to say that the original intent of most religions would be to share the spiritual awakening that comes from the "journey within". Trouble is this sort of fulfillment has a huge appeal, and there are always those who will pervert that appeal to their own ends, even if their intentions are good at the outset. Again this pushed many to embrace atheism more as a knee-jerk reaction to the shortcomings of organized religion.