Whose Islam?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
User avatar
Glacier
The Pilgrim
Posts: 36379
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by Glacier »

Atomoa wrote:You don't agree with his views and call him a nutcase,

Most people on the left, right, or centre call him a nutcase. He believes in some pretty hokey stuff. A germ theory denialist who is involved with PETA is pretty loony (in my opinion).
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
- Douglas Murray
User avatar
Thinktank
Guru
Posts: 8942
Joined: Nov 5th, 2010, 6:21 am

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by Thinktank »

Image
If you have to be persuaded reminded bullied pressured bribed incentivized, lied to, guilt tripped, coerced, socially shamed, censored, threatened, paid, punished and criminalized, to gain your compliance- the thing is no good
User avatar
Glacier
The Pilgrim
Posts: 36379
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by Glacier »

Image
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
- Douglas Murray
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14437
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by hobbyguy »

My observation is that most wars start/escalate when totalitarian regimes are at play.

Totalitarianism includes regimes that range from Fascism to Oligarchy to Stalin-ism and include Theocracy.

Some wars are caused between democracies, but they tend to be limited, and many of the "democracies" on this list as questionable, as is the inclusion of things like the American Revolution. http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_wars_between_democracies?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com

I would therefore submit that Islam is not the problem, it is the theocratic impulse. I do not profess to know how much theocratic impulse is embedded in Islam.

Islamic communities have been present in North America at least since the 19th century, without any exceptional problems.

The theocratic impulse within Christianity has been the root of an awful lot of reprehensible and shameful things. Think Spanish inquisition, residential schools, Irish laundries, Conquistadors, the Crusades, the destruction of Mayan, Aztec and Inca history, and the list goes on and on...

Antithetical to all forms of Totalitarianism are democracies, which fundamentally require tolerance and egalitarianism (which are arguably roots of freedom).

It is incumbent on us to accept Islam and Islamic people. If we do not, then we undermine our own freedom and democracy.

That does not mean that we should accept radical jihad-ism and the theocratic notions peddled by the Muslim Brotherhood. Those are very real and present dangers and concerns. We should not, however become ideologically infected by anti-Islamic fervor - for if we do, we sow the seeds of destruction for the very democracy and freedom we cherish.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
steven lloyd
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 19275
Joined: Dec 1st, 2004, 7:38 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by steven lloyd »

hobbyguy wrote: It is incumbent on us to accept Islam and Islamic people.
If we do not, then we undermine our own freedom and democracy.

Only to the extent we can guarantee the continued separation of church and state, religion and political process.
This is where Islamic fundamentalism becomes a threat to our freedoms and democracy. Disenfranchised Islamic brainwashed youth are not blowing themselves up in crowded market squares because no one is allowing them to
pray. We must not be naive. The threat to our freedoms and collective safety is very real.
A day spent in defense of freedom of speech is a day spent in the company of bigots and hate mongers. – Omid Malekan
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14437
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by hobbyguy »

I agree Steven.

Wherever one looks at challenges to the separation of Church and State, one finds religious fundamentalists with the theocratic impulse that would impose their way of thinking upon others. This is an ever present factor in democracies, as one tenet of democracies is freedom of religion. It is unfortunate that the religious fundamentalists attack the very concept that allows them to practice their religion - tolerance and the freedom of religion that democracy grants them precisely through the separation of church and state.

It is unfortunate that the theocratic impulse in the middle east has turned violent, and possibly cultural. In Syria, it appears from the outside to have degenerated to the extent where Shia and Sunni forces are fighting each other for supremacy (I do not pretend to understand the complexities).

Christianity has had many violent theocratic impulses, and none with constructive result. Long periods of war between Catholics and Protestants resolved nothing, and where such impulses flare up, as in Northern Ireland, nothing good flows from them.

We do indeed need to be aware that the Islamic theocratic impulse, and take steps to curtail that violent outlook where we can. However at the same time, we must keep sight of the fact that the violent theocratic impulse is separate from the practice of Islam by the vast majority of its followers.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
logicalview
Guru
Posts: 9792
Joined: Feb 6th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by logicalview »

hobbyguy wrote:
We do indeed need to be aware that the Islamic theocratic impulse, and take steps to curtail that violent outlook where we can. However at the same time, we must keep sight of the fact that the violent theocratic impulse is separate from the practice of Islam by the vast majority of its followers.


Is it? Not in France:



There are sectors of large cities in Europe that are now no-go zones for police and public services. This is a result of uber-tolerant Europeans embracing your suggestions HG. Clearly, these old multicultural touchy-feely ways do not work, when confronted with violent theocratic Islamic principles, either abroad, or at home. How long before big sections of Toronto are considered no-go? Vancouver?
Not afraid to say "It".
User avatar
logicalview
Guru
Posts: 9792
Joined: Feb 6th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by logicalview »

Well, November is in the books, let's look at the death toll now for the past month, thanks to "The Religion of Peace":

Monthly Jihad Report
November, 2013


Jihad Attacks: 223

Countries: 21

Religions: 5

Dead Bodies: 1330

Critically Injured: 2425

Month over month we are down over 100 dead. Hmmm...maybe because there is an extra day in October? Let's see how much jihad there is in December. Maybe the senseless killings will tail off a bit going into the new year.

Here's what we've got so far for the first three days of December - 30 people killed so far in December. That's only a body count of 10 per day.

2013.12.03 (Gareshk, Afghanistan) - Four civilians lose their lives to fundamentalist bombers.
2013.12.03 (Damascus, Syria) - Four locals are blown to bits by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2013.12.02 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - A suicide truck bomber incinerates at least four other people.
2013.12.01 (Benghazi, Libya) - A father is shot to death in front of his own son by suspected Sharia advocates.
2013.12.01 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Two women and two children are among a family of five murdered in their own home by sectarian Jihadis.
2013.12.01 (Muqdadya, Iraq) - A Shahid suicide bomber sends twelve mourners at a funeral straight to Allah.
Not afraid to say "It".
User avatar
logicalview
Guru
Posts: 9792
Joined: Feb 6th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by logicalview »

Multiculturalism working wonders in Austria - only 18% of Muslims in Austria believe that anyone who renounces Islam should be murdered....could we get that down to 15% some day?

Survey on Islam in Austria: 18% of Muslims support death sentence for apostasy, 21.9% oppose democracy

Posted on December 3, 2013


The Threat of Islam in Austria

from Gates of Vienna

I previously reported on a survey of Flemish voters that showed how many people in Flanders consider Islam a threat, despite all the decades of multicultural indoctrination.

Now comes a mirror-image survey from Austria, showing the intolerant and non-integrative attitudes of Austria’s Muslims. And remember: teachers were the ones being surveyed. These weren’t ignorant denizens of the “Muslim street”; they were the people officially charged by the Austrian state with Islamic education.

Our Austrian correspondent ESW has compiled a report based on German-language sources. First, her prefatory note:

Muslims in Austria, especially those of official Islam, are highly nervous about the study that was made public two days ago.

Mouhanad Khorchide is a fairly well-known scientist, often invited to discussions. He was also on the panel at the recent discussion at the political academy of the ÖVP, where he filled in for Tariq Ramadan. He can certainly be considered a liberal Muslim, but a Muslim nonetheless.

I am wary of him, but he is helpful, because Muslims cannot complain about the study having been written by infidels; it was written by one of their own. This is the main reason for their nervousness. Even the political left is nervous about the results of the study. Some even consider revoking Islam’s status as a religious group if changes are not made.

However, I am looking forward to watching these changes unfold. How can the Quran and its contents be changed? People need to realize that it is not the teachers who are the problem, but rather Islam.


Will there be a special Quran for Austria? An Austrian Islam? What will Saudi Arabia say?

Interesting times. The truth will prevail. The lie of Islam will hopefully be exposed. Thank you, Mr. Khorchide. You have helped the Counterjihad more than you will ever know!

Here is the translation of an article from Wednesday’s Die Presse:

Islamic Teachers A Problem

One in five teachers of Islam (21.9%) has a problem with democracy. And he or she even says so openly. This is the result of a written survey meticulously conducted by the sociologist and scientist Mouhanad Khorchide. Apart from the above assertion, there is additional explosive data: 14.7% distance themselves from the Austrian constitution, 13.9% are of the opinion that elections are not compatible with Islam, and 28.4% believe that it is not possible to be a European and Muslim at the same time.

Austrian Survey
Even more, there are those among the polled Islamic teachers (18.2%) who advocate the death penalty in case of apostasy. And 8.5% sympathize with those using violence to spread Islam.

- – - - – - – - -

Anas Shakfeh, the head of the Islamic Faith Community in Austria, also concludes that beliefs and attitudes such as the above are highly problematic. However, direct consequences cannot be drawn from this study because the questionnaires were made anonymous. “I cannot react to a private opinion,” Shakfeh says. If a teacher does make these statements, there would be consequences.

But the hiring of Islamic teachers is the responsibility of Islamic Faith Community, not that of the state. This resulted in the hiring of teachers who were inadequately trained or not trained at all. 37% of those teaching right now have no theological training, 41% are not trained as teachers — all this can also be found in the study.

The Faith Community blames these numbers on “relics”: when Islamic religious teaching was first introduced in 1982, there were no qualified teachers in Austria, which meant they had to be “imported” from Turkey. Only in 1998 was the Islamic Religious Academy (IRPA) founded in Vienna [as part of the University of Vienna].

Things have since changed somewhat, says Khorchide. “Second-generation religious teachers identify more strongly with Austria. They do not have deficits [such as those found in the study].” On the other hand, these younger teachers do not emphasize critical reflection, but rather convey rituals and laws. There remains much to do.

The title of the study was: Mouhanad Khorchide, “Islamic Religious Education between Integration and Parallel Societies: Attitudes and Beliefs of Islamic Religious Teachers in Public Schools”

The survey questions were:

1. “I oppose democracy because it cannot be reconciled with the teachings of Islam.”
2. “I believe it is not possible to be a European and a Muslim.”
3. “Islam forbids taking part in elections (i.e. voting).”
4. “I oppose the Austrian constitution because it is in contradiction with Islam.”
5. “Islam dies not allow participation in Austrian cultural activities (theater, art, etc.).”
6. “I oppose the Human Rights Convention because it is not compatible with Islamic teachings.”

Who is Mouhanad Khorchide?

The 37-year old Lebanese native considers himself a liberal Muslim who does not read the Quran as the literal word of God, and who applies scientific methods when he trains religious teachers and works as an imam.

What makes his Ph.D. thesis so exceptional is its exclusive approach in matters of Islam, school and integration. The higher echelons in the Faith Community saw potential in Khorchide and in 2007 gave him permission to hand out his questionnaires at a conference for religious teachers. 210 teachers (out of 330) teachers returned the questionnaires. Experts say that results are particularly representative for Vienna and Lower Austria [two states in the eastern part of Austria]. The best and most highly trained teachers can be found in these two states.

The study finds a quarter of teachers who answer questions regarding democracy, rule of law, and integration precisely the way right-wing populists allege and liberals fear. The older the teacher, the greater the rejection of the rule of law and democratic principles. What is especially disconcerting is that 44% of the teachers believe that students primarily need to learn about feelings of superiority.

One in three teachers does not hold Austrian citizenship. Teachers hail from Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt, first-generation immigrants who were not exposed to democratic values and freedom in their home countries. How can they now convey these values to their students?

The Faith Community is represented by Anas Shakfeh. He has been president for ten years and worked as a teacher. Official Austria holds him in high regard on integration matters. He was even given a prestigious award for his efforts. Shakfeh is the head of the Islamic education authority and taught without formal training for 20 years. He also works for the Saudi Arabian embassy in Vienna. Is one who works for an inhuman theocracy and who knows little about education science and teaching skills the right man to establish an open and modern Islamic religious education?

A couple of weeks ago he subtly denied Israel’s right to exist. As a result, our interview starts with a discussion about the war in Gaza. Khorchide’s study? He has read parts of it. “They’re not catastrophic, but also not OK”, Shakfeh says. “Since Khorchide also teaches at university, it is also up to him to make improvements.”

Here are some of the first political reactions, as summarized by ESW from ORF:

Both the minister of education and the mayor of Vienna are publicly demanding consequences. Interestingly enough, both the minister and the mayor are members of the socialist parties.

Says mayor Michael Häupl: “The fact that a fifth of the Islamic religious teachers oppose democracy causes me sleepless nights. If I had a study like this about indigenous teachers, I would faint.” He warns that any changes in the way teachers are trained would also mean consequences for Catholic teachers, because according to the law on religious education of 1949, it is the religious groups who are in charge of religious education; the state only acts as a supervisor.

Minister Claudia Schmied said in an interview with Austrian television that this survey calls for consequences and that she will seek a meeting with Anas Shakfeh.

All other Austrian political parties have already reacted to the controversial survey well before the socialists did: Sirvan Ekici (ÖVP, conservative party), in charge of integration matters, wants the Faith Community to make sure its teachers conform to Austrian laws and values.

Socialists demand a “comprehensive explanation from the Faith Community. It is necessary to make sure that nothing that goes against democratic values is taught. There is no room for fundamentalist tendencies.”

The Freedom Party (FPÖ) and Jörg Haider’s spin-off, BZÖ, are in agreement that mosques and schools need to be monitored closely. This should be done by the Federal Agency for State Protection and Counterterrorism, since the Faith Community is unwilling or unable to take care of this.

Even the Green Party finds the results of the study troubling: “Whoever opposes human rights or demands the death penalty for apostasy is not fit to teach in Austrian schools,” says Harald Walser, who also warns of the existence of parallel societies.

Some more background from ORF:

Islamic religious teaching has been taking place at Austrian public schools for 27 years. There are 350 teachers for 32,000 students. Khorchide adds that there has never been a scientific evaluation of Islamic religious classes. Until 1998, when the university institute IRPA was founded, teachers were recruited among the Arab population in Austria. Some of those have radical tendencies and continue teaching to this day.


http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2 ... democracy/
Not afraid to say "It".
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14437
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by hobbyguy »

LV - the opponents of multi-culturalism do have some points. However, you need to take a step back and see that it is fundamental to democracy.

Democracy is a messy business.

You can not have freedom of religion unless you allow ALL religions room to practice their faiths.

If you pick one, whether it be Zen, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Atheism, or Paganism (or whatever) then you have allowed your society to become theocratic in nature, and therefore totalitarian.

Probably the most stark an abusive choice we have seen implode in our lifetimes was the Soviet Union, who tried to impose atheism. Yes, atheism is a faith.

Democracy is by nature includes the need to be inclusive. That is a hard thing to achieve, and must be constantly nurtured. If, for example, you say that only fat old white guys who own property can vote, do you have a true democracy? If for example, you say that in Canada we will not allow people of a certain ethnicity to vote, do you have a true democracy? Shamefully we have tried that.

Waves of immigration always create some tensions, and the same old issues jump to the fore. Xenophobia is part of it. The theocratic impulse within religions is another. At various points in North American history we have seen discrimination against Jews, Poles, Italians, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, South Asians, Ukrainians, and the list goes on. Yet as the discrimination fades (no, it is not gone in many cases) we find that all of these groups have become valuable contributors to our society. In the interest of democracy, It is critical not to feed these xenophobic impulses - especially when those impulses are theocratic.

Whenever a democratic society chooses to ostracize an ethnic or religious group, those groups trend into crime and antisocial activities because they have no other option. As that ostracism fades, so do the criminal and antisocial activities (they never vanish as every culture/group has within it individuals who are predisposed to criminality and other antisocial activities).

The other valuable thing that happens as the discrimination and ostracism fade, is an enrichment of the society. People find ways to bridge the gaps, and in doing so the tendency is to cross adopt the best aspects. As a simple example, I now look forward to going to the Vaisakhi parade, and I see Sikh folks in my neighborhood putting out pumpkins and giving out treats on Halloween. Those processes that lead to the constructive results of enriching the society can not be rushed, and so what looks to be a big problem for one generation can evolve into a positive strength for the society in the next.

The key to it all is that we must foster a culture that looks for the good in others. In looking for the good in others, we allow them to see the good in us, and begin the process of bridging the gaps.

I believe if you think it through, that you can not have a true democracy without multiculturalism. Think about what the results have been of the mono - culturalist view that was formerly taken toward our aboriginal peoples. Pretty much nothing good.

I also believe that if you even give a cursory look to the core beliefs of Islam, you will find them to be at odds with the Jihadist violence. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/10256/

Of course, like all religions, you will also see a theocratic impulse. (I'll stick to my agnosticism thanks.)

The end conclusion is that you can not have a democracy without multiculturalism, for without multicultural acceptance, you can not have freedom.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14437
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by hobbyguy »

In looking at this question, the jihadist militants are the real issue. In trying to figure out how many truly dangerous jihadist militants are present in western countries, it is hard to get data.

The data that LV gives regarding jihadist attacks is confusing, precisely because all of the attacks listed are in conflict zones. That makes it very difficult to sort out internecine Sunni vs Shia attacks from those of jihadist militants.

I came across an article that may shed some light on this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25155188

This may just be a stereotype, but I would have assumed that the really ardent jihadists would have been drawn to Syria like moths to a flame. There are something like 2.5 million Muslims living in the UK. 200 ardent militants have gone from the UK to Syria. That's .008 % of UK Muslims that are radical and ardent enough to go to Syria.

As a comparison, an estimated .32% of US residents are gang members (40 times as many).
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
Captain Awesome
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 24998
Joined: Jul 22nd, 2008, 5:06 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by Captain Awesome »

logicalview wrote:There are sectors of large cities in Europe that are now no-go zones for police and public services.


Islam isn't the reason why some part of these cities turn into Muslim ghettos. People don't bundle together in few city blocks because they're widely accepted, they bundle together as a defense mechanism, actually. If they feel they're not welcome in "white" parts of London, they'll stay in their little ghetto where they feel safe.
Sarcasm is like a good game of chess. Most people don't know how to play chess.
User avatar
sobrohusfat
Guru
Posts: 5894
Joined: Jul 2nd, 2008, 12:42 am

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by sobrohusfat »

Get real Captain...They're so afraid are they? is that why they shut down entire public streets to bend over towards Mecca??


Here's one poor frightened muslim who just wants to get himself and his delicate bicycle home where he can be safe from those nasty nasty white Danes.

vexing language
The adventure continues...

No good story ever started with; "So i stayed home."
User avatar
logicalview
Guru
Posts: 9792
Joined: Feb 6th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by logicalview »

Captain Awesome wrote:
Islam isn't the reason why some part of these cities turn into Muslim ghettos. People don't bundle together in few city blocks because they're widely accepted, they bundle together as a defense mechanism, actually. If they feel they're not welcome in "white" parts of London, they'll stay in their little ghetto where they feel safe.


Thank you for that "woe is me" angle on why Muslims are shutting down parts of major cities in Europe. Perhaps they don't feel welcome because they see women having way too much freedom, and for some reason, not being treated just above the level of the family dog, if it's a good day and she didn't accidentally look at another man.
Last edited by logicalview on Dec 9th, 2013, 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not afraid to say "It".
User avatar
logicalview
Guru
Posts: 9792
Joined: Feb 6th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Re: Whose Islam?

Post by logicalview »

hobbyguy wrote:LV - the opponents of multi-culturalism do have some points. However, you need to take a step back and see that it is fundamental to democracy.

Democracy is a messy business.

You can not have freedom of religion unless you allow ALL religions room to practice their faiths.

.


You are right - freedom of religion is important. But you can't have it both ways. You can't say we are an open tolerant democratic society, and then turn your backs or cover up Muslim honour killings in the name of said "tolerance", as Aayan Hirsi Ali found out the Dutch police were doing, to her horror, when she was a member of the Dutch Parliament. You can't stand idly by while women are forced to wear clothing they don't want to wear, and are beaten and treated like dirt. Not in an open, tolerant society. You can't stand idly by and say "don't blame Islam" when a soldier is hacked to death in broad daylight on a city street in London. Either you obey our laws, or you get lost. Continuing to turn a blind eye to the treatment of women in the name of multi-culturalism is just plain wrong, and evil.

You also have to ask - how tolerant can you be of a religion, that openly practices zero tolerance of all other religions?

Image
A church in Germany is vandalized with the "Allah Akbar" trademark,
as Muslim immigrants there begin to mark newly acquired territory.
(The country's president recently praised the invasion)

And of course, now no one can mention anything about Christianity on TV....as it might offend Muslims. This is where it just gets silly...how hard would people laugh if Christians were offended by how many times Mohammed is mentioned on "Little Mosque on the Prairie"? Not that anyone would be offended...of course.

DUCK DYNASTY star says show’s producers told them to stop praying to Jesus because it “might offend Muslims”

Is terror-linked CAIR one of the producers? In an interview with Sports Spectrum magazine Willie and Phil Robertson, stars of Duck Dynasty, talk about fake bleeps, praying in Jesus’ name, and getting flack from Christians (about the Jesus bleeps).

When the editors of Duck Dynasty asked the stars to stop saying “In Jesus Name” during prayers because it might offend Muslims, Phil Robertson had to stand his ground.

Phil Robertson also admitted that fake bleeps were inserted into the show even though there was no cursing happening. “They inserted fake bleeps…like somebody had used profanity, but no one had used profanity. I asked the guys that produce the show…What’s the point of the fake bleeps?”

“If we are not using profanity, why make it look like we are using profanity?” -Phil Robertson


http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/12/0 ... d-muslims/
Not afraid to say "It".

Return to “Religion & Spirituality”