Why do religions have to convert people?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
alexoliversen
Fledgling
Posts: 181
Joined: Oct 11th, 2011, 1:05 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by alexoliversen »

tincanjam wrote:Op, why are you trying to convert people? You are here implying that the views and actions of some people are negative and should be abandoned in favor of your more enlightened views.
1. Can you give reasons why it was ok for you to start this discussion in which you are promoting particular beliefs while criticizing others? If you mention any points which are valid you have successfully justified the creation of your post and have given us some reasons as to why it may be good to try to convert people. Perhaps you may have thought your views would be helpful, I think you are wrong on that point but if so I can at least appreciate your attempt at converting me to your flock.
2. Some people do try to imply that it is bad to try to convert people. This is a nonsensical position to advocate. If there exists any particular beliefs or actions which are "bad" "negative" or "wrong" then the existence of such entirely justifies attempted conversions. If a particular view is wrong then merely declaring it as such implies both the need for conversion and the implied request. We can debate the accuracy of the label with regards to any particular action or belief but no one can advocate against conversion without hypocrisy.

Therefore it is both nonsensical and hypocritical to make statements which imply that trying to convert people is bad. Telling people to stop trying to convert people is in-itself an attempt at conversion -self contradictory and hypocritical.


Who says I want to convert you to my religion? I just wanted some people to discuss this topic so I could find an answer.

IMHO What is more contradictory is to say there is one god and then go around trying to convince people that. I just found it an oxymoron to say that people state that there is one God, yet have people treat others like there is not.

As individual consciousness implies there is more than one God. As if an individual can function outside of God, it means there is more than one God, and that God(s) are not all omniscient or omnipotent OR there is only one God and there is no reason to convert anyone to any religion, as all is the will of God - Even man's will and religion. Thus should we not all try toi find peace between all religions, peoples, cultures, and so called God/Gods?

Personally, I just need some customers, but that is a different type of conversion. :) LOL
User avatar
Hmmm
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3018
Joined: Jan 6th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Hmmm »

Some feel the need to share with others what they themselves feel is true. Some here think that's rude and as already stated here are trying to convince these ones to also think that is rude, or another way of saying it, convert others into thinking as they do. Anyone care to try to change my mind(convert me)?
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
Xia33
Übergod
Posts: 1105
Joined: Jun 1st, 2013, 8:57 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Xia33 »

Nope...IF you know a persons belief system and/or they are willing to join you in a discussion that is fine. By all means, do what you feel is right for you ...just don't be shocked when someone rudely disagrees with being approached IF you do not take the first polite "sorry, not interested" . This is the way I feel....MY opinion, for myself. I do not care to be preached at or ministered to....had plenty of that hellfire and brimstone stuff growing up.
User avatar
CJSchmidtz
Newbie
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 8th, 2006, 7:13 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by CJSchmidtz »

“Hmmm” understands the point I was making but Xia I also understand that sometimes people adopt a particular way of articulating something without really meaning to embrace the entire worldview that such would seem to imply. Therefore I will not press the issue/accept your clarification. I completely agree that people should be able to respect a “sorry not interested.” Every group has those of us who can seem to be pushy at times. I appreciate anyone who is willing to engage in any of these conversations. However (-: if I could make one more little friendly note. You said
“just for the record I have not once stated what my beliefs are. lolol and will not.”
You may not have given us a doctrinal statement but you really have told us a lot about what you do and do not believe. For example you speak in terms of should and should not. This implies a shared belief in objective morality, “should” only works within the context of assuming that there is some standard to which people are obligated to conform to. You also believe this standard is universal in that it is a standard that everyone, rather than simply a specific group should conform to. You also believe that people possess a right to self-determination. A right which should not be impeded at least in the context we have discussed. I also believe in these I just mention it because some people tend to look out at those of us who have clearly defined belief systems while thinking of their own as a non-belief system. The reality is everyone has beliefs that they both deny and others that they promote.
"What luck for rulers that men do not think"
Hitler
Xia33
Übergod
Posts: 1105
Joined: Jun 1st, 2013, 8:57 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Xia33 »

I reread my posts and I don't believe I spoke in terms of should or should not. I speak for myself only...but do know how frustrated others get as well.
User avatar
Glacier
The Pilgrim
Posts: 35527
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Glacier »

Xia33 wrote: And, just for the record I have not once stated what my beliefs are. lolol and will not.

No need to do that because actions speak louder than words. As the old saying goes, "don’t tell me what you believe, show me how you live and I’ll tell you what you believe.”
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
- Douglas Murray
User avatar
CJSchmidtz
Newbie
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 8th, 2006, 7:13 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by CJSchmidtz »

Xia, I’m not trying to back you into a corner, I’m hoping that by bringing to light some implications you will desire to get out of the corner. You believe that if you tell someone to stop preaching to you they “should” stop preaching to you. You were not saying I want them to stop but it is ok if they don't want to. If they do not stop you make a judgement against them, you label them as rude etc. I believe that your beliefs in this regard are completely right and good. The difficulty is in that we live in a culture which promotes some views that are only valid if morality can be considered objective and universal…. And other views which only work if morality is purely subjective and relative. I hope you don’t feel obliged to conform to relativism and therefore back away from promoting tolerance as a real obligation.
"What luck for rulers that men do not think"
Hitler
User avatar
WeatherWoman
Wicked Witch of the West Coast
Posts: 35411
Joined: Jul 30th, 2009, 8:25 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by WeatherWoman »

I did not ready all the replies.

but my answer to your question is:

To build their armies! In a time of of religious battle they wan't to recruit as many as possible to gain more land etc.
"It takes a village to raise a fool." ~ Dan Mangan
User avatar
Thinktank
Guru
Posts: 8537
Joined: Nov 5th, 2010, 6:21 am

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Thinktank »

although it's true that it's the Christians who voted for warmonger George Bush
and it's true that most Christians would just love to see a couple million Muslims
in Iran get slaughtered if it would benefit Israel, and it's true that most Christians think that Armageddon
would be one of the best things that could ever happen because then the rapture would happen.
Although all these things are true, only a small percent - 20% - of Canadians attend church and would
be the kind of people interested in converting others to their religion. So weatherwoman is wrong.
It would be just as easy to get non-Christians to agree to a good war, as Christians. Even if we all
went atheist tomorrow - we'd still have wars - maybe even more bigger wars.
“In the entire history of mankind there has never been a political elite sincerely concerned about the wellbeing of regular people. What makes any of us think that it is different now?”
Xia33
Übergod
Posts: 1105
Joined: Jun 1st, 2013, 8:57 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Xia33 »

CJSchmidtz wrote:Xia, I’m not trying to back you into a corner, I’m hoping that by bringing to light some implications you will desire to get out of the corner. You believe that if you tell someone to stop preaching to you they “should” stop preaching to you. You were not saying I want them to stop but it is ok if they don't want to. If they do not stop you make a judgement against them, you label them as rude etc. I believe that your beliefs in this regard are completely right and good. The difficulty is in that we live in a culture which promotes some views that are only valid if morality can be considered objective and universal…. And other views which only work if morality is purely subjective and relative. I hope you don’t feel obliged to conform to relativism and therefore back away from promoting tolerance as a real obligation.


LOLOLOL don't feel like I am in a corner and I don't think you can "back me into a corner" and am not really sure what it is you are saying.

Believe me...if I say politely, sorry I am not interested and they continue...there is absolutely zero room for discussion and they will have no doubt what I mean. yes, I believe it is rude to push, but am not above pushing back either if need be. I do promote tolerance in the way that I believe everyone is entitled to their beliefs and do respect that. My kids grew up knowing all of these different cultures and religions, as we have lived in Muslim countries, predominately Catholic countries and travelled extensively...and they are very open minded and tolerant as well, and take each person as that, no lumping into generalizations. So.....what does that tell you about me?? LOLOLOL objective and universal or subjective and relative Whatecer the heck that means. lol
User avatar
CJSchmidtz
Newbie
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 8th, 2006, 7:13 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by CJSchmidtz »

Alex I think I can use your beliefs in order to express why it is very important we try to convert you (-: and other people who believe horrible things. I am not saying you are horrible…. Please let me explain.
You said
“ there is only one God and there is no reason to convert anyone to any religion, as all is the will of God - Even man's will and religion.”
I think most theists and even most atheists would agree with what I am about to say. I believe that some beliefs and actions are wrong. Some more extreme examples are the Nazi’s final solution, the Salem Witch Trials, female genital mutilation etc. Therefore I would seek to persuade people not to promote the ideas and behaviors associated with these and many less extreme examples. A less extreme example would be promoting some kind of a Ponzi scheme.
Unless I am wrong you believe in a type of determinism which tells you that “all is the will of God.” Whatever you do, whatever you believe it is all fine, it is all the will of God. I believe this is horribly wrong. I am consciously aware of making choices and decisions, I could be wrong perhaps God is making me oppose your ideas. However this is a situation where I happily treat my self-awareness as innocent till proven guilty because If I am wrong I don’t have a choice anyways and it doesn’t matter.
"What luck for rulers that men do not think"
Hitler
Xia33
Übergod
Posts: 1105
Joined: Jun 1st, 2013, 8:57 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Xia33 »

CJSchmidtz wrote:Alex I think I can use your beliefs in order to express why it is very important we try to convert you (-: and other people who believe horrible things. I am not saying you are horrible…. Please let me explain.
You said
“ there is only one God and there is no reason to convert anyone to any religion, as all is the will of God - Even man's will and religion.”
I think most theists and even most atheists would agree with what I am about to say. I believe that some beliefs and actions are wrong. Some more extreme examples are the Nazi’s final solution, the Salem Witch Trials, female genital mutilation etc. Therefore I would seek to persuade people not to promote the ideas and behaviors associated with these and many less extreme examples. A less extreme example would be promoting some kind of a Ponzi scheme.
Unless I am wrong you believe in a type of determinism which tells you that “all is the will of God.” Whatever you do, whatever you believe it is all fine, it is all the will of God. I believe this is horribly wrong. I am consciously aware of making choices and decisions, I could be wrong perhaps God is making me oppose your ideas. However this is a situation where I happily treat my self-awareness as innocent till proven guilty because If I am wrong I don’t have a choice anyways and it doesn’t matter.


LOLOL politely, I do not believe in your determinism...and I do believe you are beating your head against the wall here. You have it dead wrong. all of it, in a bid to change my way of thinking. Yes....there are many injust things done in the name of religion....(including yours), which I do not agree with, but you are making generalizations and that, my dear CJ, I believe is wrong. To me, organized religion was created by man, for man...to control women. How's that? LOLOL
Xia33
Übergod
Posts: 1105
Joined: Jun 1st, 2013, 8:57 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by Xia33 »

Just to take this a little farther....I have lived amongst many Muslims, who are kind, generous people who live very much like we do...not all mutilators, not all are terrorists, etc....I have had a Buddhist family live in my home, from whom I learned a lot about tolerance and kindness, so like I said, ignorance breeds hatred and racism....two terrible things IMO. This society now, goes to extremes, another not so nice thing IMO, religion being one of the extremes.
User avatar
CJSchmidtz
Newbie
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 8th, 2006, 7:13 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by CJSchmidtz »

Xia, you have misunderstood me. I do not believe in determinism Alex made a statement which seems to imply that he does. I quoted him, and then I referred to it as what “you” Alex believes. I then went on to criticize the implications of his determinism.
What generalizations are you referring to? I never said or implied that all Muslims were Terrorists or mutilators; I was clearly referring to “some beliefs and actions.” I was making a point that I think even most atheists would agree with.

Saying that you have learned about tolerance from some Muslims and Buddhists is completely consistent with my views therefore mentioning that does nothing to criticize my perspective regarding my discussion with you or my discussion with Alex.
"What luck for rulers that men do not think"
Hitler
User avatar
CJSchmidtz
Newbie
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 8th, 2006, 7:13 pm

Re: Why do religions have to convert people?

Post by CJSchmidtz »

Xia you said making generalisations is wrong and then you made two tremendous generalizations.
You said that you think religion was created in order to control women. Do you mean to say that you think every aspect of every religion is orientated towards controlling women? Perhaps you only think some aspects of some religions are attempts at controlling women. Otherwise are you trying to say commands like do not kill, or do not steal are all attempts at controlling women? Are you trying to say that everything, every religion believes should be rejected because you think you have found a negative motive you think can explain the creation of every aspect of every religion? If so should we also reject tolerance because it is embraced by many religions? I’ll leave the second for later but your generalization needs some clarifications.
"What luck for rulers that men do not think"
Hitler

Return to “Religion & Spirituality”