Before Christianity

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
Donald G
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 20156
Joined: Jan 29th, 2008, 8:42 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Donald G »

Given human nature I would expect that as soon as the human brain developed enough to give rise to self awareness and try to find reasons for everyday things to happen man invented gods and religion to give his world meaning. As the ability to communicate expanded in speech or writing religious adherents would have grown exponentially. I would be surprised if any group of people existed anywhere in the world without gods to provide meaning for all that they did not understand.

Millions of people continue to do the exact same thing today.
User avatar
Bpeep
Mindquad
Posts: 29026
Joined: Mar 1st, 2008, 10:05 am

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Bpeep »

Donald G wrote:Given human nature I would expect that as soon as the human brain developed enough to give rise to self awareness and try to find reasons for everyday things to happen man invented gods and religion to give his world meaning. As the ability to communicate expanded in speech or writing religious adherents would have grown exponentially. I would be surprised if any group of people existed anywhere in the world without gods to provide meaning for all that they did not understand.

Millions of people continue to do the exact same thing today.


Worth repeating.
Seeking the apartment that is creating leasing interest concerns knowledgeable seclusive idiots excessively.
User avatar
Ptolemy Soter
Fledgling
Posts: 246
Joined: Feb 26th, 2016, 5:15 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Ptolemy Soter »

JonyDarko wrote:I beat Rome 2 total war a couple times, one of which I played as the Scythians.

That's a fun game series.
I am... the law!
User avatar
Ptolemy Soter
Fledgling
Posts: 246
Joined: Feb 26th, 2016, 5:15 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Ptolemy Soter »

Bman wrote:Worth repeating.


It's tempting to say all that, but does anyone know what the actual catalyst was? Further, how much do we really know about this existence we live in?

It's some deep s**t, man.
I am... the law!
User avatar
Glacier
The Pilgrim
Posts: 36344
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Glacier »

Today we live a post Christian world, so I like to look back at the Christian era, and see how my ancestor's religions evolved. For example, looking at the BC Archives, I can view marriage certificates that used to list religion of the bride and groom.

Presbyterian -->Presbyterian -->United --> Christian Science

As for the pre-Christian era, it's hard to say. I suspect a little druid worship.
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
- Douglas Murray
Donald G
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 20156
Joined: Jan 29th, 2008, 8:42 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Donald G »

Unread postby Glacier » Today, 2:58 pm

As for the pre-Christian era, it's hard to say. I suspect a little druid worship.


Aye Jock. Druid knowledge and worship, Oak trees, the one horn bagpipe, woad tattoos and clan loyalty.

Was that in the area of the Black Sea 15,000 years ago, the area of the now Scandinavian countries, what is now France north of Italy or points later when the clans arrived in Ireland and the Border Lands and ended up forming Scotland under Robert the Bruce. All five Scottish Characteristics were noted at many locations across Europe as the various clans and families made their way from the caves of the Hindu Kush to their eventual homes in Scotland and Ireland.
reasonist
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 1st, 2016, 6:06 am

Re: Before Christianity

Post by reasonist »

Christianity is a copy of Mosaic law which in turn is a blatant plagiarism from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman and Greek fables and mythologies. Before Moses' monotheism people were free to worship a multitude of deities depending on culture and preference. No god was worshipped at the exclusion of others. That all started with monotheism.
If you read ancient tablets, such as cuneiform writings from 3,000 to 2,500 BC for example, or Zoroastrianism writings, you will find virgin births on the 25th of December, the flood and the ark, stone tablets on a mountain, 12 disciples, miracles such as walking on water, crucifixions, dead for 3 days, resurrections and the whole gamut of Christians beliefs.
Nothing is new. All religious cults of today are derived from the first Messianic movement when Hellenism and Greek philosophy was abandoned in favor of Yahweh worship, animal sacrifices and circumcision.
User avatar
Hmmm
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jan 6th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Hmmm »

reasonist wrote:Christianity is a copy of Mosaic law which in turn is a blatant plagiarism from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman and Greek fables and mythologies.

Of course you must have gotten this info from WIKI or the movies. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
Donald G
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 20156
Joined: Jan 29th, 2008, 8:42 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Donald G »

reasonist wrote:

Christianity is a copy of Mosaic law which in turn is a blatant plagiarism from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman and Greek fables and mythologies.


Unread postby Hmmm » 7 minutes ago

Of course you must have gotten this info from WIKI or the movies. Nothing can be further from the truth.


No offense Hmmmm but I clicked on LIKE by mistake
As much as Christians may find it unacceptable, many of the Christian beliefs can be traced directly to previously existing beliefs, religions and geological events in the years since the Sumerians first started to write things down.
User avatar
Hmmm
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jan 6th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Hmmm »

Donald G wrote:

No offense Hmmmm but I clicked on LIKE by mistake
As much as Christians may find it unacceptable, many of the Christian beliefs can be traced directly to previously existing beliefs, religions and geological events in the years since the Sumerians first started to write things down.

I agree with you, however the commenter said the Mosaic law was taken from these and that in fact was not. Today's christianity is very much mixed with what is said, but that doesn't mean the ML was. It does mean that Christians don't follow it. I want my like back.
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
User avatar
Glacier
The Pilgrim
Posts: 36344
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Glacier »

Donald G wrote:No offense Hmmmm but I clicked on LIKE by mistake
As much as Christians may find it unacceptable, many of the Christian beliefs can be traced directly to previously existing beliefs, religions and geological events in the years since the Sumerians first started to write things down.

Not by mistake, but by Freudian Slip.

You say that my of the Christian beliefs can be traced to existing beliefs, religions, etc. Okay, what's weird with that? No society is built in a vacuum. We have inherited the idea of democracy from the ancient Greeks and algebra from the Arabs. Does the fact that we didn't discover these things on our own somehow disenfranchise our civilization? Everyone knows that celebrating birthdays comes from the pagans, so what great insight exactly is someone trying to provide here?

Reasonist thinks that because an ancient society did the same things we do today that these things just have to be false. Not very good reasoning if you ask me.
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
- Douglas Murray
Donald G
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 20156
Joined: Jan 29th, 2008, 8:42 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Donald G »

Unread postby Glacier » less than a minute ago

Not by mistake, but by Freudian Slip.


Could be true. Who knows ??

Personally I have no problem with what anyone happens to believe or where those beliefs happen to have come from. Each person has the right to determine their own belief system as long as it does not harm anyone else and they afford other people the same right. I find what I believe right for me and I sincerely hope that what you believe is right for you.
reasonist
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 1st, 2016, 6:06 am

Re: Before Christianity

Post by reasonist »

Reasonist thinks that because an ancient society did the same things we do today that these things just have to be false. Not very good reasoning if you ask me.[/quote]


I think you mistook my point. Much of the NT and Torah is copied old myths from thousands of years before Jesus and even Moses. The same stories rehashed with different names. If the good book is really the word of a deity, then this deity wasn't very inventive. He couldn't come up with something new?
For example the Egyptian Sun God Horus:
Born of a virgin
Born on 25th of December
Star in the east was guiding
three kings to see him
was baptized in the river Jordan
started ministry at age 30
had 12 disciples
performed miracles such as healing the sick
was crucified
dead for 3 days
and resurrected

sounds familiar? So are Christians worshipping Horus, or Mithra or 38 other ancient stories with the same script?
User avatar
Ptolemy Soter
Fledgling
Posts: 246
Joined: Feb 26th, 2016, 5:15 pm

Re: Before Christianity

Post by Ptolemy Soter »

reasonist wrote:Christianity is a copy of Mosaic law which in turn is a blatant plagiarism from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman and Greek fables and mythologies. Before Moses' monotheism people were free to worship a multitude of deities depending on culture and preference. No god was worshipped at the exclusion of others. That all started with monotheism.
If you read ancient tablets, such as cuneiform writings from 3,000 to 2,500 BC for example, or Zoroastrianism writings, you will find virgin births on the 25th of December, the flood and the ark, stone tablets on a mountain, 12 disciples, miracles such as walking on water, crucifixions, dead for 3 days, resurrections and the whole gamut of Christians beliefs.
Nothing is new. All religious cults of today are derived from the first Messianic movement when Hellenism and Greek philosophy was abandoned in favor of Yahweh worship, animal sacrifices and circumcision.


While I agree that Christianity is somewhat of a poor ripoff of previous things, and that the Bible sounds suspiciously like a Greek epic poem, it's not so simple.

There were monotheistic cults before, during, and after Moses' time. The Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten established a cult surrounding himself, which many people followed after abandoning the regular deities. The Zoroasters did the same, depending on the time period. Ahura Mazda has always been seen as superior to their other deities, which many even today believe to be the only god (all others simply being manifestations of the one). Hinduism follows a similar premise, along with the Yezidis.

In cuneiform tablets (depends on which people and language you're speaking of), there are no uniform stories. When the Sumerians wiped out their neighbours, they adopted the deities, myths, and customs of the vanquished (much like the Babylonians). Sumerian mythology, et cetera: http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/SumerianMyth.htm

The deity for certain whose birthday may have been on the 25th of December was Sol Invictus (it may have been Mithras), whom the Romans probably adopted from Asia and customized to fit their own purposes. The problem with this is that these deities along with their customs could have copied early Christian elements, even though 'Jesus'' birthdate was probably in March. Besides, Sol Invictus came about after the supposed birth of 'Jesus' (if he even existed) Much like Serapis and other later pagan Roman cults, even Sol Invictus was probably just an invention of the elite. Here are some links with lots of sources: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sol_Invictus, http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Mithras

There is the question of Horus. His mother was not a virgin, though, and other parts of his myth do not coincide with other pantheons. This link has a thoughtful take on some of it: http://isiopolis.com/2011/12/25/isis-os ... mber-25th/

To go on: The flood myth is recognized in many cultures, yes. The Sumerians were the first known to write about it. Same goes for some other myths. The practice of circumcision is Egyptian though, and several cultures adopted it. Egypt ruled over Judaea for a time. Animal sacrifice was rife in almost every ancient society, especially in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds. Ever heard of a hecatomb? Human sacrifice wasn't uncommon, either (Carthage), and neither were forced conversions and extreme piety (Athens).

There are many other problems with the hypothesis that Christianity is a total copy of previous religions, but I'm sure you're smart enough to go searching for this information yourself. Remember (if any of the following were your resources), Zeitgeist, Joy Of Satan, David Icke, and many other sources are not trustworthy authorities on these subjects. Zechariah Sitchin's understanding of Hewbrew and Sumerian was very poor. They make far too many guesses and assertions.

You're better off acquiring source materials if possible. In the end, it's likely that Christianity was a creation of Roman nobility to find a new way to keep together a crumbling society, no matter how much of it is original. If it is true that the Piso familia wrote most of the Bible, if all these new 'sources' of late can be trusted (whenever that is published), then we can totally renew how religion is viewed in general. Until then, it's not safe to make assumptions. Unless something major happens, the truth in these matters is like searching for tiny islands in rowboat on a black ocean under a black sky in the fog.
I am... the law!
reasonist
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 1st, 2016, 6:06 am

Re: Before Christianity

Post by reasonist »

I couldn't agree more with most of what you wrote. Horus's story was that of the golden phallus and since his father was dead at the time of conception, it is considered a 'virgin' birth. Anyhow, I have a translation of the 'Epic of Gilgamesh' fable which of course contains the fable of the famous flood, like in many other ancient mythologies. But the sheer accuracy of the story from the exact measurements of the ark and it's compartments, the animals, stranding on a mountain etc. is astonishing. Almost to a T in the Torah, which was written by ...we don't know.
I think therefore that an omnipotent deity does not have to copy anything but could easily be original and not be crucified, or not walk on water, or not been born of a virgin. This deity should have had enough imagination to not warm up ANY old stories and come up with something completely new and unheard/unread of. But no such luck. Throughout the good books we see much of the ancient mythologies repeated. Without the Torah there would be no Christianity and no Islam. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect and Islam of course believes in the Abrahamic God as well.
Btw' I meant to say that the Messianists re-introduced the animal sacrifices and circumcision.

Return to “Religion & Spirituality”