Atheists in the Okanagan.

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
Healthyskeptic
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Healthyskeptic »

Franciscus Bernardus Maria "Frans" de Waal, PhD (born 29 October 1948) is a Dutch primatologist and ethologist.


Frans de Waal- "Moral behaviour in animals"

Even animals are moral and have ethical behaviour. Morality, reciprocity and fairness predate 'mankind'

We are mostly moral creatures. Religions just sit back and take the credit.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

Farmmaa wrote:Pepsi, I really have no clue exactly what it is you are ranting on about here.

The 'other atheist' ( BTW there are many of us here ) stated clearly that no one is born religious.
Babies do not come in to this world believing in any deity or religious world views.

Babies are, however born INTO religion.

Those are not contradictory statements.
A child born to Christian parents will be taught to be Christian.
A child born into a Muslim family will be taught the ways of Islam.
a child born into a Jewish family will be taught Jewish views and traditions.
That's how religions operate - by indoctrinating children.

No. Atheists do not share any sort of agenda, platform or 'credo'.
An atheist simply does bot believe in any gods. That's about all we have in common.
There is no atheist club.

As for your comments about atheists only 'picking on Christians'...that's pretty much the most ridiculous statement I've heard on here - which is saying a lot.
What about the Jews ???? HUH ???
What about Judaism you mean ?
Atheists don't believe in any religion ....we disbelieve all of them equally.

I feel exactly the same about any and all organized religions and any and all deity worship.
I do not single out Christianity...and neither does any other atheist or agnostic that I've ever known.


Indeed there are not only atheist clubs but now they want churches too! LOL. Can you explain this for me? You despise religion but you collectively want churches and ministers. Sounds to me like you have an identity crisis and 'religion envy'.

When's the last time you bashed Judaism? Or Islam? You and others do indeed single out Christianity and frankly many of you look like envious little toddlers with no belief of their own. And you hardly speak for all other atheists and agnostics, especially considering the fact that two of you just contradicted each other. You saying people are not born into religion (again, I ask you, what about the Jews or do you even understand anything about the Jews) yet the other atheist says people ARE born into it.

Were you born into atheism? Who determines your moral code? How did you learn it? Where does it come from? (bet it's Christian roots if you go back far enough). :smt045
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

Healthyskeptic wrote:Franciscus Bernardus Maria "Frans" de Waal, PhD (born 29 October 1948) is a Dutch primatologist and ethologist.


Frans de Waal- "Moral behaviour in animals"

Even animals are moral and have ethical behaviour. Morality, reciprocity and fairness predate 'mankind'

We are mostly moral creatures. Religions just sit back and take the credit.


So your answer is that you are like animals.
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.
Healthyskeptic
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Healthyskeptic »

“… don’t believe anyone who says that since nature is based on a struggle for life, we need to live like this as well. Many animals survive not by eliminating each other or by keeping everything for themselves, but by cooperating and sharing. This applies most definitely to pack hunters, such as wolves or killer whales, but also our closest relatives, the primates. In a study in Taï National Park, in Ivory Coast, chimpanzees took care of group mates wounded by leopards, licking their blood, carefully removing dirt, and waving away flies that came near the wounds. They protected injured companions, and slowed down during travel in order to accommodate them. All of this makes perfect sense given that chimpanzees live in groups for a reason, the same way wolves and humans are group animals for a reason. If man is wolf to man, he is so in every sense, not just the negative one. We would not be where we are today had our ancestors been socially aloof." -Frans de Waal

Caring, reciprocity, fairness... It's built into primate behaviour.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

Farmmaa wrote:
They can start by not trying to push their religious views on others.
That would be a great start.


You must mean the believers of Islam. They are the only ones trying to push their beliefs on others these days, by mass murdering them. (ie does the phrase CONVERT OR DIE mean anything to you?)

Yet, strangely enough, I never see you, a virulent atheist, speak out against Islam (or any other religion for that matter, other than Christianity).
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.
Healthyskeptic
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Healthyskeptic »

Even though Mr. De Waal is a primatologist he has documented examples of cooperation,,fairness, caring, moral behaviour in birds, whales,elephants, dolphins, dogs, etc, etc....
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
Donald G
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Donald G »

I have no more interest in joining an atheists club than I have in joining a religion. Bot profess a knowledge of the Universe that, to date, is far beyond the ability of humans to understand.

"I don't know at the moment" is the best humans can do. Except to conclude that there is no evidence whatever to support any of the 2000 or so "man made" religions and mythical gods that have existed in the minds of humans since humans were able to form a thought.

On the other hand there is neither proof, nor disproof, to the possibility that "a united theory of everything in the Universe" may cause us to reexamine our always tentative conclusions.
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

Healthyskeptic wrote:“… don’t believe anyone who says that since nature is based on a struggle for life, we need to live like this as well. Many animals survive not by eliminating each other or by keeping everything for themselves, but by cooperating and sharing. This applies most definitely to pack hunters, such as wolves or killer whales, but also our closest relatives, the primates. In a study in Taï National Park, in Ivory Coast, chimpanzees took care of group mates wounded by leopards, licking their blood, carefully removing dirt, and waving away flies that came near the wounds. They protected injured companions, and slowed down during travel in order to accommodate them. All of this makes perfect sense given that chimpanzees live in groups for a reason, the same way wolves and humans are group animals for a reason. If man is wolf to man, he is so in every sense, not just the negative one. We would not be where we are today had our ancestors been socially aloof." -Frans de Waal

Caring, reciprocity, fairness... It's built into primate behaviour.


How about you put that in your own words?

And if I didn't know better I would say that is much like 'pushing your atheist beliefs onto others'. Sort of like me quoting scripture to you. Another atheist here doesn't like having religion pushed on her. Do you think you are pushing atheism on people with all these quotes from some remote article? Would you consider it 'pushing my religion' if I were to start quoting scripture from the Bible to you as my replies?

btw some animals eat their young, I don't consider that 'caring'. The fact you do is questionable to say the very least.
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

OREZ wrote:
It's based on my own observations over the last ten years or so and supported by some things I've read. I don't have any statistics or hard data which I can link you to. It's not hard to find articles and blogs about it though. Actually, it seems to me there was a topic which touched on this on Castanet a while back.

There was a time when if you said the word "atheist" you could almost certainly assume that the person was on the left, politically and that is by no means the case anymore. I myself, am more left leaning politically if anything but I am a believer and have read the Bible for many years so this is something I've observed with great interest and I have a hunch that this trend (if I can call it that) will continue.


Well I hope the trend continues whereby those on the left come to the Lord, that would be awesome. I have not found that right leaning individuals have moved to atheism from faith though.

Yes, some of us from the older generation definitely associate atheism with socialism/far left ideology/communism even. Blame Russia I guess LOL.
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

Donald G wrote:I have no more interest in joining an atheists club than I have in joining a religion. Bot profess a knowledge of the Universe that, to date, is far beyond the ability of humans to understand.

"I don't know at the moment" is the best humans can do. Except to conclude that there is no evidence whatever to support any of the 2000 or so "man made" religions and mythical gods that have existed in the minds of humans since humans were able to form a thought.

On the other hand there is neither proof, nor disproof, to the possibility that "a united theory of everything in the Universe" may cause us to reexamine our always tentative conclusions.


I bet you would enjoy the movie "The Theory of Everything" (story of Stephen Hawking). I found it fascinating and probably one of the five best movies of that year. I think the young man playing Hawking won an academy award but don't quote me on that.

Have you seen it? If not, I highly suggest you watch it. Such a great movie in so many ways.
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.
Donald G
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Donald G »

Postby pepsilover » 5 minutes ago

So your answer is that you are like animals.


I am afraid that many animals have the same characteristics as humans and many humans have the same characteristics as animals. Especially in regard to the homeostatic life preservation, reproduction, socialization and the ongoing establishment of a intra and inter group pecking order.
Donald G
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Donald G »

Postby pepsilover » 23 minutes ago

I bet you would enjoy the movie "The Theory of Everything" (story of Stephen Hawking). I found it fascinating and probably one of the five best movies of that year. I think the young man playing Hawking won an academy award but don't quote me on that.

Have you seen it? If not, I highly suggest you watch it. Such a great movie in so many ways.


The theory of time is just as good. Both are available at the public library and The Theory of Time is available in both online visual and on line aural formats. IMO there is so much data in the two that one has to continually read them over and over to actually begin to understand them. Fascinating, Fascinating. Fascinating.
Healthyskeptic
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Healthyskeptic »

The evidence that early man and animals such as our primate cousins share compassion, taking care of our sick, caring for the elderly and keeping them alive isn't 'pushing an Atheist Agenda." It proves that compassion, fairness, reciprocity and a sense of fairness is earlier than Religion.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
Donald G
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by Donald G »

by Healthyskeptic » 4 minutes ago

The evidence that early man and animals such as our primate cousins share compassion, taking care of our sick, caring for the elderly and keeping them alive isn't 'pushing an Atheist Agenda." It proves that compassion, fairness, reciprocity and a sense of fairness is earlier than Religion.


Keep in mind that might determines the outcome and an emotional response to everything is the order of the day for the animal world. With only rare exceptions, the non human animal world is a long way from developing a left frontal pre-cortex that provides (most) humans with a degree of control over their emotions and the facilitation of a delayed reward system that is responsible for so much of the altruism carried out by humans.

In animals (and some genetically delayed humans) Maslow's Hierarchy stops at the Second Level .
pepsilover
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Re: Atheists in the Okanagan.

Post by pepsilover »

Healthyskeptic wrote:The evidence that early man and animals such as our primate cousins share compassion, taking care of our sick, caring for the elderly and keeping them alive isn't 'pushing an Atheist Agenda." It proves that compassion, fairness, reciprocity and a sense of fairness is earlier than Religion.


And that has nothing to do with what I asked you. Avoidance much?

To be clear, when you post articles about atheism is that pushing your beliefs on others? If I post scripture about the Bible is that pushing my beliefs on others? I wish somebody - from your camp - would tell me how these two are different. And, just for the hell of it, maybe describe what 'pushing religion on others' means to them. It seems to me that defence of the Faith is considered 'pushing' by some. How democratic of you all.
To PC liberals who are offended at the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.

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