Before Christianity and Islam

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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maryjane48
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Before Christianity and Islam

Post by maryjane48 »

we all know christianity and islam have a starting point that falls far short of humans first walking on the earth . and i think it can illustrate the fact that humans have moved from one belief to another and that the notion that just one is the right version is a oxymoron .



now to be clear this thread shouldnt be viewed as a judgemental one as i think the focus should be on proven history . maybe both sides of the debate can learn from each other . my personal views on gods of anytype are clear in other threads and its my personal thoughts . but even knowing that what each person thinks is true for them is as important as any of mine are .


so start off before the torah was written or first testement what did those people worship ?
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cliffy1
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Re: Before christianity ans islam

Post by cliffy1 »

Before the Torah were the writings of the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians and the Sumerians. Many of the stories in the Torah were based on those older cultures and the oral traditions of the Israelites. The Torah was written while in captivity in Babylon. The Abrahamic religions all say that Abraham was the father of their religions but Abraham was a Sumerian and lived long before the Israelites were even goat herders in the desert.
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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maryjane48
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by maryjane48 »

exactly
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cliffy1
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by cliffy1 »

A rational, secular, historical perspective on the history of Christianity and its scripture


The reality is that it is all true to an extent, and equally nonsensical at the same time. The Bible has meaning to all its readers, but it is important to consider that the meaning it has is informed by the prejudices the reader brings to it.
To really understand the Bible and what it intends to say to present generations, it is necessary to understand who wrote it and why, and the cultural context in which it was written. The story is an interesting one, in no small part because the story is so much messier than most of its advocates would have you to believe. And its very messiness is why it is a story rarely told in any completeness to Christian audiences.
The overriding theme of the Bible storylines is the theme of cultural conquest. Conquest by the Hebrews over their enemy neighbors, culturally by the Jews over the Israelites (used here to mean members of the ten "lost" tribes), the Christians over the Jews, the Catholics over the Gnostics, Marcionites, and other pre-Catholic factions, and on and on. In some cases, the conquest is recorded as a historical, often military event. In others, it merely is recorded as a change in content and context, an alteration of the storyline and outlook and worldview.
And the story of the editing and translation of the final form of the Bible into what today is regarded as holy scripture is a story not just of cultural conquest, but of political intrigues, and not just between competing bishops, but with secular political authority itself. It is as if the U.S. congress or president were to decide what constituted Christian doctrine and scripture, and everyone went along - at the peril of their lives - until no one even questioned the accuracy of the official viewpoint.
The effect of its origins as selected parts of whole bodies of scripture, written by at least a hundred and fifty different people in dozens of different places at different times, many centuries apart, and for different reasons, colors what its authors wrote. Yet that simple fact is widely ignored, both by people who naively follow what they read in it as the inerrant word of God, and by more liberal scholastic theologians, who seek to understand its historical context as well as a body of doctrinal scripture, which they often blindly follow, even though they know full well its messy origins.

MORE: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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Glacier
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by Glacier »

That crackpot website seems to be peddling the da Vinci Code/Zeitgeist/Reza Aslan narrative, which isn't exactly a mainstream viewpoint among academics.
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Rosemary1
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by Rosemary1 »

'Religions', (I prefer to refer to them as belief systems) along with the worship of some type of god(s), has always been around because man has always needed to rationalize events he cannot understand and gratify the dreams and needs he feels can't be met without a little help from a higher power of some kind.

Everyone can believe what they want and need to believe - as long as it does not involve judging or hurting others. It matters little what 'religion' came first, when, how, or who passed it down.
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cliffy1
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by cliffy1 »

Glacier wrote:That crackpot website seems to be peddling the da Vinci Code/Zeitgeist/Reza Aslan narrative, which isn't exactly a mainstream viewpoint among academics.

Anything that disagrees with your position will be those of a crackpot. From 40 years of study of the history of religion, I would say it is pretty accurate though.
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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Glacier
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by Glacier »

cliffy1 wrote:Anything that disagrees with your position will be those of a crackpot. From 40 years of study of the history of religion, I would say it is pretty accurate though.

Lots of crackpot websites agree with me a lot of issues. Crackpot websites tend to espouse lofty goals of clear thinking and rational thought, but upon closer inspection don't resemble any of that. It's in part the tacky choice of flashy colours that give off the crackpot appearance, but on substance, it's really funny. Dare I say ironic.

For example, the writer says that the readers bring their bias into Bible interpretation, and then he goes off on some tangent about what it really means, which is really funny because you have to has some crazy biased preconceived conclusion about what it's going to say to arrive at his conclusions. Here's what he said:

    "The overriding theme of the Bible storylines is the theme of cultural conquest. Conquest by the Hebrews over their enemy neighbors, culturally by the Jews over the Israelites (used here to mean members of the ten "lost" tribes), the Christians over the Jews, the Catholics over the Gnostics, Marcionites, and other pre-Catholic factions, and on and on. In some cases, the conquest is recorded as a historical, often military event. In others, it merely is recorded as a change in content and context, an alteration of the storyline and outlook and worldview."

This is wrong on so many levels it's hard to know where to start, but I suppose to most glaring error is that most of these supposed "cultural conquests" happened after the Bible was written.
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
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cliffy1
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by cliffy1 »

There are something like 40 thousand Christian sects. Christians can't agree among themselves about the interpretations of these archaic texts. Anybody who is not a Christian, who approaches the book with an open mind can see the glaring contradictions, the lack of cohesion in the narrative and the attempts at passing off the impossible and improbable as truth. The historical inaccuracies are also glaring and require the believer to twist and turn in the wind to make it fit to their preconceived ideas about it. They also ignore that most of the old testament is plagiarized from the Epic of Gilgamesh which is Sumerian in origin and precedes the bible and the Torah by at least a thousand years. The story line in the new testament borrow heavily on previous religions of Egypt, Babylon, India and others. Even the titles given to Jesus were borrowed from the Pharaohs. But I know that believers will dismiss any attempt to bring truth to the matter, so I will leave it here for those who aren't yet attached to the religion in hopes that they do not waste their lives believing in false hopes and beliefs in myths and allegories as literal truths.
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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ferri
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Re: Before christianity and islam

Post by ferri »

Language warning at the site. :)

i thought of this thread when i was reading #4 at this site: http://www.cracked.com/article_20585_6- ... t_facebook
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