Why do you believe?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
youjustcomplain
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by youjustcomplain »

Omnitheo wrote:I believe in all gods equally. Hence Omni-theo

Zeus, Jehova, Quetzecotl, Arceus, Baldr, Poseidon etc. All exist.

After all, Pascal's wager suggests that if I'm wrong and don't believe in a god, I could suffer for it.

Pascal's wager is an argument that asserts that one should believe in God, even if God's existence cannot be proved or disproved through reason.

Blaise Pascal's original wager was as a fairly short paragraph in Pensées amongst several other notes that could be considered "wagers". Its argument is rooted in what has subsequently become known as game theory. The wager argues that the best course of action is to believe in God regardless of any lack of evidence, because that option gives the biggest potential gains. It can be distilled simply:

If you believe in God and God does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven: thus an infinite gain.
If you do not believe in God and God does exist, you will be condemned to remain in hell forever: thus an infinite loss.
If you believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded: thus an insignificant loss.
If you do not believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded, but you have lived your own life: thus an insignificant gain.


Though it's a bit problematic when we get to Islam where "There is no god but Allah"...but with over 700 gods currently worshiped on earth, what's a man to do?


How do you choose to believe in something?
For me, it would be dishonest. I could go to church, I could tell everyone I believe in god. I could pray constantly, but I still would't believe it.
Pascal.
When I die:
if a god exists, he/she can choose to reward me based on whether I believe. (not whether I was a good person)

But I don't believe because I can't. I could spend my life lying, but if this god is as all knowing as he's said to be, he'll know that I was a liar, and not a true believer. (something I have no control over).

Here's a part that confuses me about this wager though. I thought the Christian god is merciful, all powerful, loving etc... Yet he would send me to hell for being who he created me to be? Does that sound a bit strange?

Also, I'd argue that if I don't believe and when I die, there turns out to be no god, that there IS a significant gain. That being that I spent my life doing what I I wanted, knowing that my life would end and that would be it. Meaning, I'll have spent more of my time doing what I wanted for myself, for my community and for my family.
I can't say there is any inscentive in the heaven/hell hypothesis to have been a good person in life; only that you believe and say sorry for the all the awful things you've done.
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Omnitheo
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by Omnitheo »

It certainly does make things more complicated when the gods themselves are full of hypocrisy. It seems to make them fallible like man. As though all of these gods are simply just anthropomorphizations of natural phenomenons that weren't understood.

This still makes all of them real. As real as Harry Potter, Pikachu, Darth Vader, the two blue glaucus nudibranches on Noah's arc.

They are all made real by us. And just like the belief in the invented Jehova and his prophets, So too can you now worship Iokar the Wise. Great All-Father of the cosmos, who sent down Fluffy, His only Earth Child to show you the light. Do you open your eyes to the light and wisdom of Fluffy? Or do you defy Him to spend eternity in damnation in Iokar's Shadow?

Praise Iokar. What have you got to lose?
"Dishwashers, the dishwasher, right? You press it. Remember the dishwasher, you press it, there'd be like an explosion. Five minutes later you open it up the steam pours out, the dishes -- now you press it 12 times, women tell me again." - Trump
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Thinktank
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by Thinktank »

God Always
Bible Sometimes
Church Never


Image

Right there, the bible is telling us there's only one right way to do things, and anyone, no matter how good he is, who doesn't do everything this one correct way - should be 'cursed?'

But I never said the bible should be thrown out. Nope. It's an okay book. But the church can be thrown out.
Because in every church - EVERY SINGLE CHURCH ON EARTH - you will find crooks.





..
And we know the Western slobs in government could EASILY have negotiated peace in Ukraine - but - simply - they didn't want to.
2FollowHim
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by 2FollowHim »

It's our life experience, the route taken, which can be determined by a few, willy nilly as was my case. You've heard the term 'I don't SEE it' and I didn't see the terrible downward direction my life had gone. Just living, stuff to do. Even after I was saved, I STILL didn't SEE where I'd been headed. I was saved on so many levels. But then, few today believe in the concept of SIN. I had no trouble seeing who and what I was, the 'off' areas. Sure, some strengths, who doesn't? But the twisted, deluded parts would do me in. Jesus made sense to me. For example, no disrespect intended to Muslims at all, but personally I could never connect to Muhammad and his ways. I wouldn't belong to that. Theressome false doctrine in Christianity that many think is Christianity.
Thankfully those aren't true because I wouldn't be Christian if they were. But it's wonderful. But some things I follow that many don't is, it's just NOT for everyone. I find those who only see horizontally cannot see vertically, ie. Up. Not there. Sometimes there's a shift. I happen to know, recognize and really dislike sin. Many don't agree. Thatsalways true, wouldn't you say?
I might as well let you back away slowly, smiling, as you think 'crazy, beware' but I'm FE also, not spinning, tilted, wobbling, pear shaped spheroid. Lots of facts for that. Nobody cares, so I don't bother.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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2FollowHim wrote:It's our life experience, the route taken, which can be determined by a few, willy nilly as was my case. You've heard the term 'I don't SEE it' and I didn't see the terrible downward direction my life had gone. Just living, stuff to do. Even after I was saved, I STILL didn't SEE where I'd been headed. I was saved on so many levels. But then, few today believe in the concept of SIN. I had no trouble seeing who and what I was, the 'off' areas. Sure, some strengths, who doesn't? But the twisted, deluded parts would do me in. Jesus made sense to me. For example, no disrespect intended to Muslims at all, but personally I could never connect to Muhammad and his ways. I wouldn't belong to that. Theressome false doctrine in Christianity that many think is Christianity.
Thankfully those aren't true because I wouldn't be Christian if they were. But it's wonderful. But some things I follow that many don't is, it's just NOT for everyone. I find those who only see horizontally cannot see vertically, ie. Up. Not there. Sometimes there's a shift. I happen to know, recognize and really dislike sin. Many don't agree. Thatsalways true, wouldn't you say?
I might as well let you back away slowly, smiling, as you think 'crazy, beware' but I'm FE also, not spinning, tilted, wobbling, pear shaped spheroid. Lots of facts for that. Nobody cares, so I don't bother.


Good for you!

I've got better things to study in my life than a manual on how to live life, based on a book written over 2000 years ago.

Curious tho, what do you mean by "saved"? Where you saved from death? Your own self destruction? A life in Hell?
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by 2FollowHim »

Every way. Relationship, literal destruction which is not fun to recall even being rescued, many times.
Now I'm curious. What are your 'better things to do than follow a 6,000! year old manual shown to be written by the Creator?
Then there's financial, surely somewhat important at all times but I'd suggest key in this basic lockdown?
Having absolutely unique ways to handle things that work, when I see other ways not working is supreme, since how we deal with things usually matters.
I have nothing more important than learning how to live.
What do you find so much more important?
And how's that working for you?
I actually appreciate non belief more than false belief.
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Thinktank
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by Thinktank »

Sparki55 wrote:...what do you mean by "saved"?


You sound like you are "of this world" - so you are NOT saved. You'll probably burn in hell.

Everyone on earth who is not a Christian - is "of this world" including those Buddhists who really try to be nice people,
and especially Muslims who, like the guy on youtube keeps telling us, are just bad - will all go to hell.

If you are a Christian, you are saved. It's that simple. Among the Christians are guys like Peter (in the bible) who chopped someone's ear off with a sword once, but he had a good heart, so that's okay. He was a good guy. But there are other people among the Christians like Judas - pure evil. Wicked. Greedy and Crooked. And they're in church every Sunday, smiling.

Oh and when the bible says you can't worship God and money at the same time - NOT TRUE. Every single Christian on earth worships God and Money at the same time.

Image

Every single Christian on earth worships God and Money at the same time.
And we know the Western slobs in government could EASILY have negotiated peace in Ukraine - but - simply - they didn't want to.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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1nick
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Re: Why do you believe?

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2FollowHim
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Re: Why do you believe?

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You don't have (guessing, but) experience with the supernatural. And it's all over.

The reason I can speak generally, which you mistake as 'worldly' is I've seen the supernatural on every realm, or many, for a long time. I don't deny worldly people, or Buddhists their supernatural experiences. They happen.
I won't condemn Edgar Cayce or Nikola Tesla their amazing abilities.
The God I serve is love, and thus the man made doctrine of hell(hell is real, just not their description) doesn't fit God.

Maybe Allah, maybe Shiva.

I'm glad of God's ways because I wouldn't follow a hateful god.
God does have standards, for Christians, not for non Christians.

I hope you experience some amazing stuff.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by 1nick »

I’ve been on this earth long enough to see and experience some amazing and beautiful things.
When people see something they don’t understand they like to put the word “super” in front of natural.
It doesn’t mean it’s created by some Sky Dad.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
youjustcomplain
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Re: Why do you believe?

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youjustcomplain
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by youjustcomplain »

2FollowHim wrote:Every way. Relationship, literal destruction which is not fun to recall even being rescued, many times.
Now I'm curious. What are your 'better things to do than follow a 6,000! year old manual shown to be written by the Creator?
Then there's financial, surely somewhat important at all times but I'd suggest key in this basic lockdown?
Having absolutely unique ways to handle things that work, when I see other ways not working is supreme, since how we deal with things usually matters.
I have nothing more important than learning how to live.
What do you find so much more important?
And how's that working for you?
I actually appreciate non belief more than false belief.


You feel you were saved. Good for you. Glad you're around to enjoy life.

I don't think Sparki meant that he/she wasn't interested in leading a good life. More, that he/she wasn't interested in following the Christian bible at the benchmark for leading a good life.

Everyone is on the same path to learn how to get along in this life. How to treat others well, how to be successful in whatever that means to them. How to be happy, healthy, loving and loved. Thing is, you don't need faith for this. You don't need to pick and choose parts of a holy book that has NOT been demonstrated to be the word of a god.

I can get out of bed every morning and go about my day without giving an though to the bible, to jesus, to a god, to prayer, to sin... none of it enters my mind, ever. I mean, ever (unless I'm engaged in a conversation about it).

So, the point is, it's not that atheists or people of other faiths don't think that our time is better spent not trying to improve the world around us. It's that we choose to not follow the christian bible as our foundation for morality.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by Sparki55 »

2FollowHim wrote:Now I'm curious. What are your 'better things to do than follow a 6,000! year old manual shown to be written by the Creator?


First off, shown to be written by a creator is extremely subjective. There isn't enough proof to convince anyone who is skeptical.

2FollowHim wrote:Then there's financial, surely somewhat important at all times but I'd suggest key in this basic lockdown?


Yes, I spend many hours on my finances. Nothing that I need to know about them can be taught from the bible.

2FollowHim wrote:Having absolutely unique ways to handle things that work, when I see other ways not working is supreme, since how we deal with things usually matters. I have nothing more important than learning how to live.


I also hold learning how to live as a highly important area of study. Though this is common between us, I go about learning how to live differently. I choose to study cooking/ farming, history, politics, language, and engineering in my free time; none of which can be found in the bible.

2FollowHim wrote:What do you find so much more important?
And how's that working for you?
I actually appreciate non belief more than false belief.


As for what's most important: Science. I find science the most important of all simply by looking out my window in the morning and watching a car drive by and wondering about all the advancements humans have made. The bible speaks of none of this. If the bible was indeed a guide to life for humans, it would have included the basis of mathematics, with a few examples of use (physics, biology, chemistry) to get us started. Just to be able to follow and write the bible, a language was required, yet language was an invention of humans. So instead of reading an out of date book that is only able to be written because of human accomplishments in science and literature, I choose to study science.

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