Kelowna and Religion

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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CrystalCity
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by CrystalCity »

The "rewrote" view is a perplexing one. First there have been several translations, from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to a variety of "modern languages". While I do see how translations can change the meaning, at the same time there were abuses done by not allowing scripture to be accessible in whatever common language at the time. This is what lead to the first twist in what was written, that being the opening of Genesis. Humans were given stewardship over the earth, not dominance. The view of dominance came after Humans essentially desecrated the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That in itself didn't give them knowledge about what was around them but rather knowledge about themselves. Their own motives were selfish. This leads to the debate of whether they were set up to fail...that depends. Any parent knows that eventually a child is going to learn lessons the hard way. Is that a failure? Not necessarily.

The Catholic church no longer teaches that Genesis is the literal history of how Humans came to be, so don't even go there, as the Vatican now endorses evolution, the same goes for the Anglican church. Genesis is now taught as being metaphorical. As for any other denomination of Protestant church, I can't say.
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Jlabute
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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69cutlass wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 6:48 am The world would be a better place with less religion.
Some people may be more 'Christian' than they think, without admitting it.

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youjustcomplain
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by youjustcomplain »

ekir8 wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 2:52 pm To play the devils advocate (is that a pun? idk), just look to the words of Jeffry Dahmer. Here's a couple quotes:
You can quote as many monsters as you want. They would be monsters if they believed in a god or if they didn't. Whether the god was the Christian one or otherwise.

The entire point is that some people do awful things, with or without religion. It's not because they don't believe that they do those things though. On the other side of it, some religious zealots do awful things in the name of religion. This doesn't mean that religion is bad, or belief in a god is bad. People can be good or bad with or without belief in a god.
ekir8 wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 2:52 pm Point being, if there is a prevalent mindset that we are here by random chance and our lives are fleeting and ultimately meaningless, what is to stop someone from acting out their delusions of grandeur? Perhaps they begin to believe that the true path of righteousness lies in the satiation of the appetites of the self? Materialistic gain is the ultimate focus because, after all, the material is all we have.
Atheism is the lack of belief in god or gods. Atheism is not a doctrine; it doesn't have any sort of rules about morality or say anything about being judged after death or how to be a good person. Simply that the atheist doesn't believe in god. Any other label applied to the atheist is done wrongly.
Atheists have the same capacity to know what is good and what is not for themselves and for others. If the person doesn't know good from bad, they're likely suffering from a mental illness. Mental illnesses don't discriminate on belief or lack there of.
To flip your question back on itself though. What is to stop the believer from acting out their delusions of grandeur? If belief in god prevented people from doing awful things, then we wouldn't have so many awful things in the world given the number of people who believe in a god. Yet we do. Look at the percentage of criminals in prisons in the USA alone who are atheists and compare that to those who identify as believers. If belief in god made people act good, then you'd expect to see next to zero believers in prison, and yet that's not what we see. I highly doubt that is localized to the USA. I'm betting that convicted criminals in Kelowna would have similar belief rates.

ekir8 wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 2:52 pm There are many good hearted people who don't believe in God. Most of the world, however, does believe in God. I wonder if suddenly that belief evaporated completely, what kind of world we would find ourselves in if nobody believed in an objective moral standard, especially as times begin to get more difficult and uncertain. Would we start to slide into a world governed by Natural Law? If so, do you think you're a big enough dog to survive it?
Objective moral standard?
What is objective about it? And does that mean that all people who believe in a god follow the same standard? I mean, taking Christianity alone, doesn't it clearly state what people are not to do, and yet, we see people do those things all the time? Besides, depending on the passage in the Christian bible, it seems to condone awful deeds that contradict this moral standard.

Natural Law?
What is this? I would never ever think of nature as a good guide for how humans in society should behave. Infanticide is common place in nature and for good biological reason, but this practice does not belong in human society. I have never met any atheist who believes that infanticide is good for society. As such, I can't say I know of anyone, with or without belief in a god who advocates for Natural Law, if this is what you meant.

If believe suddenly evaporated, what kind of a world would we find ourselves in?
I suspect we'd find ourselves in the very same world we find ourselves in now. I don't see any reason to think that things would be any different. People already do what they want, with or without the fear of some gods eternal judgement and punishment. Those who do good things only in hopes that they'll be rewarded in the next life will stop doing good things I suppose. I don't see atheists going out of their way to not do good things for their families, friends, communities. So I don't think the problems with your proposed new world would come out of atheism.
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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CrystalCity wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 9:17 am I'm surprised given the Conservative mindset that still seems to dominate Kelowna. There's been evil done in the name of Atheism too...look at the USSR under Stalin.
Generally speaking, the ridings with the highest percentage of "no religious affiliation" in Canada are also the most conservative. Prince George, Fort McMurray, etc... The other area with high no-religious affiliation is on Vancouver Island, which isn't so conservative. And also the Yukon which is all over the political map.
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youjustcomplain
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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Y-Wine wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 4:40 pm I know a couple of Atheists that started praying when they developed life threatening illness'. Does that make them hypocrites or did they realize they need something in their lives to really matter? I found it rather humorous in their sudden change of attitude.
Did you ask them why they started praying? I mean, if they don't believe there is a god listening to them, then I wonder who they were praying to.

I suspect they just lived their lives without any need for a god and, as such, just didn't believe there was someone there. Maybe they were more agnostic than atheistic. Either way though, they may have decided that if they were going to die, that they might want to hedge their bets; If they pray to god and things work out, they could change their tune and decide a god heard them and answered their prayer. Or maybe the died and we'll never know if they found a loophole by which to continue on.

When close to death, some people also talk to their mother who has been dead for 20 or 30 years. It's not necessary for them to believe that their mother can hear them. They need not believe their mother is listening for them to do this. Fear and anxiety are powerful things.
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Glacier
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by Glacier »

one wheel wrote: Oct 27th, 2022, 11:39 am Churches are closing because the attendance has dropped & I wonder how these Religions count their membership numbers ? For example if a person says they are a Catholic or a United Church member but haven't attended in the last 30 years are they considered to belong the flock ?
It's self reported. Most people in Quebec are Catholic because they were baptized 50 years ago. They might not believe or practice in any way today, but still consider themselves Catholic.
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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I think the fundamental Christian churches are doing well in Kelowna, their members are very active in the business community and have a lot of political influence. Most of these churches are pro-life and right wing. I think the majority of permanent, long time residents belong to one of the churches and tend to patronize the members of their church.
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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CrystalCity wrote: Oct 28th, 2022, 9:45 am The "rewrote" view is a perplexing one. First there have been several translations, from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to a variety of "modern languages". While I do see how translations can change the meaning, at the same time there were abuses done by not allowing scripture to be accessible in whatever common language at the time. This is what lead to the first twist in what was written, that being the opening of Genesis. Humans were given stewardship over the earth, not dominance. The view of dominance came after Humans essentially desecrated the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That in itself didn't give them knowledge about what was around them but rather knowledge about themselves. Their own motives were selfish. This leads to the debate of whether they were set up to fail...that depends. Any parent knows that eventually a child is going to learn lessons the hard way. Is that a failure? Not necessarily.

The Catholic church no longer teaches that Genesis is the literal history of how Humans came to be, so don't even go there, as the Vatican now endorses evolution, the same goes for the Anglican church. Genesis is now taught as being metaphorical. As for any other denomination of Protestant church, I can't say.
If the Catholic church no longer teaches Genesis is the literal history of how humans came to be, then I'm assuming their official viewpoint is now "theistic evolutionist". The late Phillip E. Johnson (UC Berkeley law professor and critic of Darwinism) said in 1997 that theistic evolution is inherently superficial and leads people into naturalistic thinking.
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CrystalCity
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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No. It's viewed more like the parable's used by Jesus in the New Testament. They speak more about the spiritual relationships between people and how people interact with nature. It leaves science as being science, and is not about how but rather why we are here (to be stewards not dominators). The Catechism of the Catholic Church goes into more explanation which is a bit too in depth to write here.
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

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CrystalCity wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 11:43 am No. It's viewed more like the parable's used by Jesus in the New Testament. They speak more about the spiritual relationships between people and how people interact with nature. It leaves science as being science, and is not about how but rather why we are here (to be stewards not dominators). The Catechism of the Catholic Church goes into more explanation which is a bit too in depth to write here.
According to Wikipedia: "The Catholic Church holds no official position on the theory of creation or evolution, leaving the specifics of either theistic evolution or literal creationism to the individual within certain parameters established by the Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, any believer may accept either literal or special creation within the period of an actual six-day, twenty-four-hour period, or they may accept the belief that the earth evolved over time under the guidance of God. Catholicism holds that God initiated and continued the process of his creation, that Adam and Eve were real people, and that all humans, whether specially created or evolved, have and have always had specially created souls for each individual."
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by Sol316 »

What follows is a riff on The Apostles' Creed:

The Darwinists' Creed (for spiritual Darwinists, theist or atheist):

We believe in Darwin, the Father all-sovereign, 
explainer of all things visible and invisible, 
And in one Thomas Henry Huxley, the bulldog of Darwin, 
begotten from the substance of Darwin.
We believe in his son, Julian Huxley, 
of one substance with his Father.
We believe in Ernst Mayr, Stephen Jay Gould, and Richard Dawkins 
who proceed from the spirit of Darwin and Huxley, 
and through whom all things were understood, 
things on heaven and things on earth:
who for our enlightenment were made flesh and became men, 
who suffered grievously at the hands of petty academics, 
were denied tenure and publication at state schools, 
but rose to pre-eminence at superior universities 
and ascended into endowed chairs and chancellorships without end.
By their convictions and firmly held beliefs may we and all our works be judged. Amen.

For we are the chimps of his lab and the apes of his zoo ...
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by capleton »

What is a"spirtual Darwinist"?. Also Evolution is nothing like religion so that creed thing is creative but dumb
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by capleton »

youjustcomplain wrote: Oct 28th, 2022, 7:39 am
capleton wrote: Oct 28th, 2022, 2:03 am So you are the pope of atheists now? how does anti-theism give atheism a bad name? They don't go around mutilating women's genitals or bomb abortion clinics. If people are offended by questions and facts then to bad.
No, I make zero claims about being anything more than just an atheist. none. I don't speak for atheists, I speak for myself. I think many people are taught what an atheist is, in a way that paints the wrong picture.

Anti-theists are the type of non believers who know they're right and attack everyone else, (verbally here on the castanet forums) for having a belief that they don't share.
Just because you are offended doesn't mean they are wrong. In fact pointing out how ridiculous and absurd religions are is the right thing to do.
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by Sol316 »

capleton wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 2:44 pm What is a"spirtual Darwinist"?. Also Evolution is nothing like religion so that creed thing is creative but dumb
Read the article by Michael Ruse (former professor of philosophy and zoology at the University of Guelph):
"How evolution became a religion: creationists correct?" (National Post, May 13, 2000)
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CrystalCity
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Re: Kelowna and Religion

Post by CrystalCity »

Sol316 wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 1:51 pm
CrystalCity wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 11:43 am No. It's viewed more like the parable's used by Jesus in the New Testament. They speak more about the spiritual relationships between people and how people interact with nature. It leaves science as being science, and is not about how but rather why we are here (to be stewards not dominators). The Catechism of the Catholic Church goes into more explanation which is a bit too in depth to write here.
According to Wikipedia: "The Catholic Church holds no official position on the theory of creation or evolution, leaving the specifics of either theistic evolution or literal creationism to the individual within certain parameters established by the Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, any believer may accept either literal or special creation within the period of an actual six-day, twenty-four-hour period, or they may accept the belief that the earth evolved over time under the guidance of God. Catholicism holds that God initiated and continued the process of his creation, that Adam and Eve were real people, and that all humans, whether specially created or evolved, have and have always had specially created souls for each individual."
Wikipedia? The website that anybody can edit? Ri-i-i-ight. I've made some great edits to Wikipedia page regarding Kelowna's high-rises. That said, it doesn't give me much suspicion as to the validity of Wikipedia. Let's go with this:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PR.HTM
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