Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
capleton
Board Meister
Posts: 644
Joined: Oct 29th, 2017, 6:39 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by capleton »

Sol316 wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 9:54 pm
capleton wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 2:35 pm 4 seems highly unlikely, stories about god men were common in the ancient world and there are no sources for jesus anyway.
Please explain: "there are no sources for jesus anyway."

What would you accept as a reliable source of information for the existence of a first-century man (AD/CE) named Jesus (Greek form of Yeshua) of Nazareth?
I don't know, you should be able to name one. Josephus doesn't count
User avatar
Hmmm
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3150
Joined: Jan 6th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by Hmmm »

capleton wrote: Oct 30th, 2022, 4:54 pm

I don't know, you should be able to name one. Josephus doesn't count
Albert Einstein believed in the historical person Jesus the Nazarene.
"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."[29] Einstein was then asked if he accepted the historical existence of Jesus, to which he replied, "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."[29] Albert Einstein from Wikipedia
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
capleton
Board Meister
Posts: 644
Joined: Oct 29th, 2017, 6:39 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by capleton »

Hmmm wrote: Oct 30th, 2022, 7:52 pm
capleton wrote: Oct 30th, 2022, 4:54 pm

I don't know, you should be able to name one. Josephus doesn't count
Albert Einstein believed in the historical person Jesus the Nazarene.
"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."[29] Einstein was then asked if he accepted the historical existence of Jesus, to which he replied, "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."[29] Albert Einstein from Wikipedia
He didn't believe in the Christian/Hebrew god, he was a pantheist

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. (Albert Einstein, The Human Side).

Jesus's ideas were taught long before him, so what
User avatar
Hmmm
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3150
Joined: Jan 6th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by Hmmm »

capleton wrote: Oct 30th, 2022, 8:05 pm
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. (Albert Einstein, The Human Side).

Jesus's ideas were taught long before him, so what
I didn’t say A E was a believer in Christianity. You asked for other famous people other than Josephus who believed in Jesus existence. I gave you another. I can give many more famous historians and people the world considers to be brilliant if you like. The fact is; Jesus is a very real historical person
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
Sol316
Fledgling
Posts: 152
Joined: Sep 2nd, 2022, 4:42 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by Sol316 »

capleton wrote: Oct 30th, 2022, 4:54 pm
Sol316 wrote: Oct 29th, 2022, 9:54 pm

Please explain: "there are no sources for jesus anyway."

What would you accept as a reliable source of information for the existence of a first-century man (AD/CE) named Jesus (Greek form of Yeshua) of Nazareth?
I don't know, you should be able to name one. Josephus doesn't count
Why doesn't Jewish historian Josephus count? Josephus was born in Jerusalem only 4 years after Yeshua's/Jesus' death. His father (Matthias III) was a Temple priest at the time. In his writings, Josephus mentions Jesus twice: in Antiquities A18:63 and A20:200.

According to Dr. Paul L. Maier (Emeritus Russell H. Seibert Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University, retired in 2011) -- one of the world's authorities on first-century Near-East history, neither reference is an interpolation.
Last edited by Sol316 on Oct 31st, 2022, 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
youjustcomplain
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2054
Joined: Jun 14th, 2016, 12:56 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by youjustcomplain »

Hmmm wrote: Oct 31st, 2022, 12:54 pm I didn’t say A E was a believer in Christianity. You asked for other famous people other than Josephus who believed in Jesus existence. I gave you another. I can give many more famous historians and people the world considers to be brilliant if you like. The fact is; Jesus is a very real historical person
I don't believe Capleton was asking for other people who believed Jesus was a person. Correct me if I'm wrong Capleton but he's asking you for evidence that the Jesus people worship was what he claimed to be.

I mean, nobody on earth should ever claim that nobody by the name Jesus ever lived... It's not an uncommon name. Of course some have lived. But was one of them, the son of some god? Was this person born from a virgin? I mean, we have never seen virgins give birth, nor children of any gods, so really fantastic evidence would be required in order to suspend peoples disbelief. Either that, or just be Christian and accept what you've been told to be true.
Sol316
Fledgling
Posts: 152
Joined: Sep 2nd, 2022, 4:42 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by Sol316 »

youjustcomplain wrote: Oct 31st, 2022, 2:40 pm
Hmmm wrote: Oct 31st, 2022, 12:54 pm I didn’t say A E was a believer in Christianity. You asked for other famous people other than Josephus who believed in Jesus existence. I gave you another. I can give many more famous historians and people the world considers to be brilliant if you like. The fact is; Jesus is a very real historical person
I don't believe Capleton was asking for other people who believed Jesus was a person. Correct me if I'm wrong Capleton but he's asking you for evidence that the Jesus people worship was what he claimed to be.

I mean, nobody on earth should ever claim that nobody by the name Jesus ever lived... It's not an uncommon name. Of course some have lived. But was one of them, the son of some god? Was this person born from a virgin? I mean, we have never seen virgins give birth, nor children of any gods, so really fantastic evidence would be required in order to suspend peoples disbelief. Either that, or just be Christian and accept what you've been told to be true.
Let Capleton speak for himself as to what he meant when he said Josephus is not a source.

The Hebrew name "Yeshua" (in Greek: Jesus) was a common name, but I'm specifically referring to Yeshua of Nazareth (first-century)

I know some atheists who still say Yeshua of Nazareth never existed as a real person of history.

Whether he was God incarnate/Son of God is a separate issue.

Tom Harpur wrote "The Pagan Christ" (2004). On March 30, 2004 Dr. Paul L. Maier said on the "100 Huntley Street" telecast (Toronto): "And you realize that 99.9% of scholars across the world will acknowledge that Jesus is an historical person. They may not say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they will say there was an historical figure named Jesus of Nazareth. But Tom [Harpur] has very grave doubts about this, so he claims. Now that floored me right there. Because, we have copious evidence for Jesus’ existence. If you don't like the gospels, go to the Roman historian, Tacitus, who talks about the great fire of Rome and how Nero got blamed for it. To save himself, he blames the Christians. This Roman historian says that they are named for a Christus, who was crucified by one of our governors, Pontius Pilate. What more do you need? That quote alone would establish the historicity of Jesus. Suetonius mentions Christ in connection with the riot of those for or against Jesus across the Tiber. Pliny, the younger, Governor of Asia Minor, says that these Christians get up on Sunday morning and sing hymns to Christ as to a God. The Jewish rabbinic traditions mention Jesus of Nazareth in their own language. What more do we need of witnesses? Josephus mentions Jesus twice. I want to point out that Christian faith is based upon fact and not on fiction. The problem nowadays is that so many people are trying to turn fact into fiction."

Two of Maier's books:
"Josephus: The Essential Works" (paperback edition: 1990)
"Genuine Jesus: Fresh Evidence From History and Archaeology" (2021)
youjustcomplain
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2054
Joined: Jun 14th, 2016, 12:56 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by youjustcomplain »

Sol316 wrote: Oct 31st, 2022, 3:45 pm I know some atheists who still say Yeshua of Nazareth never existed as a real person of history.
Someone who doesn't believe in any gods could say anything. It's not related to a lack of belief in a god. I find it to be a curious position to take though; that where someone refutes claims and inserts others in their place.

How would such atheists know that Yeshua of Nazareth never existed? We're ~2000+ years past the said life of this person. How do can we know know one way or another? We can collect a body of evidence and decide which evidence should be considered and which should be discarded.

I know that anti-theists often make many claims about what god isn't, or attempt to discredit what Jesus is/was. Often, I see as many claims made by the anti-thesists as made by the theists. It's a never ending argument of opinion.


As for explaining what I thought Capelton meant, I was only trying to keep hmm in the conversation. Capelton usually responds to people with very short one liners and often isn't clear. I read his comment to mean something seemingly different from how Hmmm read it.
Sol316
Fledgling
Posts: 152
Joined: Sep 2nd, 2022, 4:42 pm

Re: Who was Jesus of Nazareth?

Post by Sol316 »

youjustcomplain wrote: Nov 1st, 2022, 12:16 pm
Sol316 wrote: Oct 31st, 2022, 3:45 pm I know some atheists who still say Yeshua of Nazareth never existed as a real person of history.
Someone who doesn't believe in any gods could say anything. It's not related to a lack of belief in a god. I find it to be a curious position to take though; that where someone refutes claims and inserts others in their place.

How would such atheists know that Yeshua of Nazareth never existed? We're ~2000+ years past the said life of this person. How do can we know know one way or another? We can collect a body of evidence and decide which evidence should be considered and which should be discarded.

I know that anti-theists often make many claims about what god isn't, or attempt to discredit what Jesus is/was. Often, I see as many claims made by the anti-thesists as made by the theists. It's a never ending argument of opinion.


As for explaining what I thought Capelton meant, I was only trying to keep hmm in the conversation. Capelton usually responds to people with very short one liners and often isn't clear. I read his comment to mean something seemingly different from how Hmmm read it.
"It's a never ending argument of opinion."

People are entitled to the own opinions, but not their own facts, or "alternative facts" (Remember Trump advisor Kellyanne Conway?) [icon_lol2.gif]

A fact is something that is known or proved to be true.

Some Bible skeptics used to question whether Pontius Pilate was a real person of history, until the Pilate stone was unearthed in 1961:

Wikipedia: "The Pilate stone is a damaged block (82 cm x 65 cm) of carved limestone with a partially intact inscription attributed to, and mentioning, Pontius Pilate, a prefect of the Roman province of Judea from AD 26 to 36. It was discovered at the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima in 1961. The artifact is particularly significant because it is an archaeological find of an authentic 1st-century Roman inscription mentioning the name "[Pont]ius Pilatus". It is contemporary to Pilate's lifetime, and accords with what is known of his reported career.In effect, the inscription constitutes the earliest surviving, and only contemporary, record of Pilate, who is otherwise known from the New Testament, the Jewish historian Josephus and writer Philo, and brief references by Roman historians such as Tacitus."

Return to “Religion & Spirituality”