Fighting Through Addiction....

Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby WalterWhite » Jan 11th, 2019, 11:10 am

tantor wrote:Working next to a wet facility I know a thing or two about what it brings to the neighborhood. We are inundated daily with reports from the RCMP and the news on recent busts made where hard drugs are involved. What do they find? Hard drugs and illegal firearms. Well if you have a facility that allows it's residents to use drugs there, guess who starts to appear in the neighborhood. The dealers of said hard drugs. I have witnessed multiple transactions and have called police and they always show up half an hour later after the transaction is complete and everyone is gone. I have had death threats and aggressive altercations with the people involved. I can say without a shadow of doubt that in the future it is inevitable that something far more serious in nature will happen. Why should I have to come to work and have the prospect of violence at my door every day? I have filled a couple of sharps containers with needles since the facility has been open. We have many families and children at our business. So there is a very real risk of someone being poked with a dirty needle. We do not allow marijuana dispensaries near schools or pubs near schools. So why on earth do we allow hard drugs to be used near a facility that has families and children present? Possessing hard drugs falls under the Food and Drug Act which means it is a federal offense! The wet facility itself is only part of the equation as it's location attracts the other addicts that are not housed also. Where there are drug dealers the addicts will follow. I don't get what kind of message that is being sent here. We want to help you fit into society by not abiding by the laws placed on society? Say that out loud and listen to how ridiculous it sounds.


Fair points and experiences - but what does it have to do with this particular topic specifically?
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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby dle » Jan 12th, 2019, 8:36 am

tantor wrote:Working next to a wet facility I know a thing or two about what it brings to the neighborhood. We are inundated daily with reports from the RCMP and the news on recent busts made where hard drugs are involved. What do they find? Hard drugs and illegal firearms. Well if you have a facility that allows it's residents to use drugs there, guess who starts to appear in the neighborhood. The dealers of said hard drugs. I have witnessed multiple transactions and have called police and they always show up half an hour later after the transaction is complete and everyone is gone. I have had death threats and aggressive altercations with the people involved. I can say without a shadow of doubt that in the future it is inevitable that something far more serious in nature will happen. Why should I have to come to work and have the prospect of violence at my door every day? I have filled a couple of sharps containers with needles since the facility has been open. We have many families and children at our business. So there is a very real risk of someone being poked with a dirty needle. We do not allow marijuana dispensaries near schools or pubs near schools. So why on earth do we allow hard drugs to be used near a facility that has families and children present? Possessing hard drugs falls under the Food and Drug Act which means it is a federal offense! The wet facility itself is only part of the equation as it's location attracts the other addicts that are not housed also. Where there are drug dealers the addicts will follow. I don't get what kind of message that is being sent here. We want to help you fit into society by not abiding by the laws placed on society? Say that out loud and listen to how ridiculous it sounds.




yes tantor, it's a damn stupid "plan" in my view too but I'm no expert so what do I know. Apparently the people who put the plan in motion are experts though. Apparently, in my view, being "expert" doesn't equate with being "sensible" or "forward-thinking". Staying tunnel-visioned about keeping drug addicts from harm while they use is their single purpose. Period. Nothing, and no one, else matters. IMHO it is a head-scratcher why it doesn't occur to them that they are adding to the problem and just giving the addicts a "rain-check" for a drug death another day. IMHO encouraging drug use is stupid, plain & simple.

If they threw as much effort and money behind plans to help these people get off drugs as they do enabling them to stay on them, it seems to me we would see a much more positive outcome with a lot more community support - which is what they want. They seem to be ignoring the obvious pitfalls, and every law and rule of society, ignoring anyone who speaks up against their "plan". The rest of the people in the community are not considered. Laws are not considered just totally ignored. The legal system itself is onboard with it. The medical system is onboard with it. We seem to be living in some kind of weird twilight zone where they just stuff it down our throats and expect us to smile and get behind it like robots.

If they want those of us opposed (for what we consider good reason), to get onboard with it they better start reporting some numbers showing it's working and I don't mean working just for the addicts. I also want the numbers that prove their claim that there is zero evidence of an increase in crime or drug related criminal activity in neighborhoods where these wet facilities and drug-allowed shelters are insinuated and no way in hell can they provide us with that assurance. That "good neighbor" propaganda flies right out the window with every break-in etc yet they still keep trying to promote it.

Living at the edge of a red zone and having these shelters etc in close proximity I can personally attest that crime against me and my neighbors has increased dramatically, it's a druggie/theft haven, and no way do I go for an evening walk even around my block by myself anymore. It USED to be a very desirable area, safe, clean, pretty. We are locked up with so many "security" protections now even we find it hard to get onto our property ourselves but it doesn't stop the thieves! It's ridiculous - it's like its a challenge to them to defy our rights to protect ourselves and to prove they are way smarter than we are. Apparently they must be, they have all the people with any power fighting for their rights to exist, to live their lives the way they want, legal or not, and not be bothered or accosted - how do the rest of us acquire equal rights?

I don't believe for one minute the groups behinds these facilities, or the cops, can come up with anything close to a statistic that would ease any concerns without serious fudging of the numbers. Too many of us have been affected by the increase of criminal and drug lifestyle activity for them to prove otherwise. Are they saying we are imagining our broken locks, stolen property, drug paraphanalia strewn about, destroyed property? In fact, a simple poll of those neighborhoods with drug activity/shelters/wet facilities in them would reveal the truth of the matter - that of course there is a marked increase of crime, drug use, and safety issues. That's why any neighborhoods in which any other such facility is proposed, is trying to take a stance against it - but it all falls on deaf ears because no one gives a damn what we think, or our safety, or our right to protect ourselves. Twilight Zone.

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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby dle » Jan 12th, 2019, 8:44 am

WalterWhite wrote:
tantor wrote:Working next to a wet facility I know a thing or two about what it brings to the neighborhood. We are inundated daily with reports from the RCMP and the news on recent busts made where hard drugs are involved. What do they find? Hard drugs and illegal firearms. Well if you have a facility that allows it's residents to use drugs there, guess who starts to appear in the neighborhood. The dealers of said hard drugs. I have witnessed multiple transactions and have called police and they always show up half an hour later after the transaction is complete and everyone is gone. I have had death threats and aggressive altercations with the people involved. I can say without a shadow of doubt that in the future it is inevitable that something far more serious in nature will happen. Why should I have to come to work and have the prospect of violence at my door every day? I have filled a couple of sharps containers with needles since the facility has been open. We have many families and children at our business. So there is a very real risk of someone being poked with a dirty needle. We do not allow marijuana dispensaries near schools or pubs near schools. So why on earth do we allow hard drugs to be used near a facility that has families and children present? Possessing hard drugs falls under the Food and Drug Act which means it is a federal offense! The wet facility itself is only part of the equation as it's location attracts the other addicts that are not housed also. Where there are drug dealers the addicts will follow. I don't get what kind of message that is being sent here. We want to help you fit into society by not abiding by the laws placed on society? Say that out loud and listen to how ridiculous it sounds.


Fair points and experiences - but what does it have to do with this particular topic specifically?


I think it relates totally to the topic of fighting addictions with DRY facilities as Karis & Ozanam and the benefits and progress their residents are making - as opposed to the wet facilities.

I earlier posted a thought as to whether THESE particular people in this story started their path to sobriety in a wet facility? I think the dry facilities' positives are really good to bring up in stories of people winning the battle while it appears they are doing so without the negatives of wet facilities (and the obvious negatives of wet facilities are equally as important to highlight)
Last edited by dle on Jan 12th, 2019, 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby dle » Jan 12th, 2019, 8:53 am

Piecemaker wrote:
dle wrote:Fair enough - but I wonder if these people in the article ever actually started their path back to sobriety in a wet facility? Perhaps they could have started in detox, then other dry programs, rehab or housing using only medically administered cessation drugs which weaned them off entirely, then into Karis & Ozanam where they are learning to move ahead into their new sober lives?



I imagine there have been paths to sobriety that have begun in all sorts of places. Detox and rehab facilities are not sitting with vacant beds. People need somewhere to live as they wait for treatment services and so do those using illegal drugs who aren't yet desiring treatment.

I don't know about Ozanam, but residents of Karis can use prescribed cessation drugs while they are living there. Someone I knew of went daily to the pharmacy for methadone or methadose.



Are they actually shooting up on the premises of Karis? Maybe they go to the pharmacy, get their cessation drugs, and go to a safe injection site or something. Even if they are, please note I am NOT against the use of cessation drugs onsite in the supportive housing such as Karis - they are of a much lesser dosage, not ones that cause aggressive behavior, not illegal, and are aimed towards complete abstinence etc. It's all positive, legal, and healing and leading somewhere good. It's the allowing of illegal street drugs in jungle rule fashion,supplied by street dealers with no visitation restrictions etc happening in the wet facilities that I am completely & totally against.
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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby tantor » Jan 12th, 2019, 10:19 am

I can also speak directly to the topic. Many years ago after a nasty motorcycle accident, I also had an opioid addiction started by a doctor who incrementally increased my dosage until it it was quite high. Then he just cut me off instead of weaning me off. I then got a hold of a black market supplier and my battle began. First off addiction is basically two parts, physical addiction and mental addiction. The physical part really sucks. There comes a point with opioids were there is almost zero euphoric feeling and you take them just to feel normal. When you first try to come off them without weaning the fun begins, usually in the first 24 hours. It starts out mild at first with some sneezing and feeling like a bit of a cold is coming on and then comes the diarrhea. This is like no diarrhea you have ever had! I could literally be running to the washroom every five minutes and it lasts for days. It continues until you are empty and goes on for a bit when you are left to passing bile an extremely painful experience. This is accompanied by vicious cramping. Then comes the cold sweats, pounding headaches and muscle cramps. Then the worst part shows up, the restless legs. It feels like your legs are not your own and a few times I contemplated suicide to make it stop. It makes it absolutely impossible to sleep. This whole process lasts about 2 weeks.
While I would not wish it on my worst enemy I did it, so I know what it's like and what it takes to do it.
The mental part I found to be exactly like the mental part of quitting smoking with the exception of anxiety. For some this can last for months along with greatly diminished energy while the body reverses the damage done over time. I got through this in about 30 days, as counter intuitive as it sounds going to the gym helped me greatly! It seemed almost impossible to get going but man did I feel better after the fact.

So having been through all of this I can honestly say in the overall scheme of things it sucks but it is not that big of a deal. If you can commit to sticking needles in your arms, legs and in between your toes, surely you can live through a couple weeks of physical discomfort and the brain fog that comes afterward.

What you absolutely can not do, is hang around or be around people that are still using or you will fail! At 99.99% of the time at the very least. This is the very reason wet facilities will never do a damn thing to help addicts recover! This is akin to putting a pyromaniac in a room full of matches and gasoline to help him recover. People need to stop listening to these so called experts who clearly have not been through the addiction process themselves. You really will never understand that while it is a journey through hell it is far easier than a life long addiction.

So while I have empathy for these people at the end of the day it is weakness and laziness that keeps them bound in their chains. Yes the mental component plays a big role in it all, but how do you even address that part while their brain is chemically unbalanced by the drugs they are taking. You must push through the physical part to get off of them and then you can actually start to deal with the mental part. Yes the whole process could take quite some time and many will need support all along the way, but it is very short compared to the years of addiction where these people go nowhere in life.

To add to that these people need to be kept away from all the so called friends who still engage in using or the chance of going back to using is almost a guarantee. Our forefathers had to fight through world war and the great depression, things that had no avenue of getting over in a few months. These things were also not something that they elected to do to themselves which is quite often the case with addicts. If we are really concerned about helping these people we need to take off the kids gloves and get to work using some tough love or this becomes a huge waste of time and tax dollars. People who do not want to be helped never will be, period. I quit and I did it on my own with zero external support for one reason and one reason only, because I wanted to!

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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby dle » Jan 12th, 2019, 12:06 pm

tantor wrote:I can also speak directly to the topic. Many years ago after a nasty motorcycle accident, I also had an opioid addiction started by a doctor who incrementally increased my dosage until it it was quite high. Then he just cut me off instead of weaning me off. I then got a hold of a black market supplier and my battle began. First off addiction is basically two parts, physical addiction and mental addiction. The physical part really sucks. There comes a point with opioids were there is almost zero euphoric feeling and you take them just to feel normal. When you first try to come off them without weaning the fun begins, usually in the first 24 hours. It starts out mild at first with some sneezing and feeling like a bit of a cold is coming on and then comes the diarrhea. This is like no diarrhea you have ever had! I could literally be running to the washroom every five minutes and it lasts for days. It continues until you are empty and goes on for a bit when you are left to passing bile an extremely painful experience. This is accompanied by vicious cramping. Then comes the cold sweats, pounding headaches and muscle cramps. Then the worst part shows up, the restless legs. It feels like your legs are not your own and a few times I contemplated suicide to make it stop. It makes it absolutely impossible to sleep. This whole process lasts about 2 weeks.
While I would not wish it on my worst enemy I did it, so I know what it's like and what it takes to do it.
The mental part I found to be exactly like the mental part of quitting smoking with the exception of anxiety. For some this can last for months along with greatly diminished energy while the body reverses the damage done over time. I got through this in about 30 days, as counter intuitive as it sounds going to the gym helped me greatly! It seemed almost impossible to get going but man did I feel better after the fact.

So having been through all of this I can honestly say in the overall scheme of things it sucks but it is not that big of a deal. If you can commit to sticking needles in your arms, legs and in between your toes, surely you can live through a couple weeks of physical discomfort and the brain fog that comes afterward.

What you absolutely can not do, is hang around or be around people that are still using or you will fail! At 99.99% of the time at the very least. This is the very reason wet facilities will never do a damn thing to help addicts recover! This is akin to putting a pyromaniac in a room full of matches and gasoline to help him recover. People need to stop listening to these so called experts who clearly have not been through the addiction process themselves. You really will never understand that while it is a journey through hell it is far easier than a life long addiction.

So while I have empathy for these people at the end of the day it is weakness and laziness that keeps them bound in their chains. Yes the mental component plays a big role in it all, but how do you even address that part while their brain is chemically unbalanced by the drugs they are taking. You must push through the physical part to get off of them and then you can actually start to deal with the mental part. Yes the whole process could take quite some time and many will need support all along the way, but it is very short compared to the years of addiction where these people go nowhere in life.

To add to that these people need to be kept away from all the so called friends who still engage in using or the chance of going back to using is almost a guarantee. Our forefathers had to fight through world war and the great depression, things that had no avenue of getting over in a few months. These things were also not something that they elected to do to themselves which is quite often the case with addicts. If we are really concerned about helping these people we need to take off the kids gloves and get to work using some tough love or this becomes a huge waste of time and tax dollars. People who do not want to be helped never will be, period. I quit and I did it on my own with zero external support for one reason and one reason only, because I wanted to!


Thanks for sharing your path and your experience and I'm sorry you had that chapter in your life. I have not (touch wood) had an addiction to anything except cigarettes and that was hard enough to quit but I did it because like you said - I wanted to - but it sure wasn't anything like the hell you describe thank goodness. I tried to quit a few times when I didn't really really want to - I just knew I SHOULD - and it was an epic fail each time. When I did really WANT to I felt a different motivation to get it done, and it really was easier and I made it (21 years) so I understand where you are coming from in that respect. I hope you never have to go through any of that again.

How does one ever experience that WANT to quit a drug if they are constantly exposed to it, allowed to break the law to get it, given a pass to do it illegally, and patted on the head and told it's all ok?

I have never been able to understand how the people pushing for these wet facilities think it's any part of a good idea to put recovering addicts in with users, or anywhere near dealers. Boggles my mind. To me it was just common sense to NOT do that EVER but they do it so thanks for validating the fact.

Can I ask if you were ever in a position to need shelter or be housed in a wet facility? I would really like to hear from someone who has, and whether it helped them quit, or if they are still using. I believe you when you say the experts are going down the wrong path by enabling the continued drug use if they really want to help people. I know they say these facilities are just meant to keep people alive, in hopes they will want to quit. Well, it makes no sense to me to keep giving them drugs and making it so easy for them - what's the motivation to quit? Why can't the facilities be two-part, a detox, or cessation drug section, then rehab? I think the main goal of the place should be to get them OFF drugs, not simply allow them to continue on as they were. There has to be a goal to quit involved in living there, not to just stay alive and be a user.

Good luck - I have a feeling you will beat the demons silly :kick: if they try to get you again!
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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby spooker » Jan 12th, 2019, 1:22 pm

dle wrote:yes tantor, it's a damn stupid "plan" in my view too but I'm no expert so what do I know. Apparently the people who put the plan in motion are experts though. Apparently, in my view, being "expert" doesn't equate with being "sensible" or "forward-thinking". Staying tunnel-visioned about keeping drug addicts from harm while they use is their single purpose. Period. Nothing, and no one, else matters. IMHO it is a head-scratcher why it doesn't occur to them that they are adding to the problem and just giving the addicts a "rain-check" for a drug death another day. IMHO encouraging drug use is stupid, plain & simple.

If they threw as much effort and money behind plans to help these people get off drugs as they do enabling them to stay on them, it seems to me we would see a much more positive outcome with a lot more community support - which is what they want. They seem to be ignoring the obvious pitfalls, and every law and rule of society, ignoring anyone who speaks up against their "plan". The rest of the people in the community are not considered. Laws are not considered just totally ignored. The legal system itself is onboard with it. The medical system is onboard with it. We seem to be living in some kind of weird twilight zone where they just stuff it down our throats and expect us to smile and get behind it like robots.


(first bolded quote) How do you figure there is any "encouragement" to do drugs? These are people that would be doing drugs anyway ... that's why it's called "harm reduction" ...

(second bolded quote) I think we can see that over the last 40 years of the "war on drugs" method has pretty well failed ... trying to enforce those laws has not worked to change the trajectory of drug use anywhere in the world ... though it's been interesting seeing the Dutch legalize some and Portugal go even further without melting down into a cesspool of criminal activity ...

Living near downtown I do have to deal with drug transactions happening in plain view of my security camera ... I have homeless sleeping behind my back yard in the lane ... had someone take a dump in the planter box next to my garage ... it's been steady for the 8 years I've lived here, beginning under the previous mayor ... I don't hold the government responsible, it's a societal issue, the government just gets to deal with it as our representatives, and then we get to blame them to play the victims ...
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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby dle » Jan 12th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Ok spooker, since you ask I'll try and explain my thinking on this.

#1 - if one is not discouraged in any way from doing drugs, and is actually provided all their necessities including "harm reduction" with people to watch over them while they are given free rein to do illegal drugs, that's pretty damn encouraging, or enabling at the very least. If they take too much or it's bad drugs someone will save them so they can go do it again without having to do anything to try to prevent it happening again (like quitting drugs), that also sounds pretty encouraging to me. They are in love with their drugs - their whole entire world revolves around getting that next fix. So tell me, with that mindset, what in a wet facility scenario sounds discouraging? It sounds like bloody nirvana to an addict! Just ask one!


#2 - the 'war' on drugs hasn't been fought very well, you are correct, but in my mind it's not because we have tried to USE laws to stop it and failed. The war was lost when the Court system FAILED TO USE the laws against the dealers in the first place. They were getting off scott free, or first offence warnings, or a slap on the wrist sentence, or on technicalities, for so long they have proliferated to the point they are "winning" the war by sheer numbers. There wasn't enough jail space to hold the ones they were catching - it took off like wild fire with the gangs and organized crime. Instead of handing out stiffer sentences to keep some of the worse off the streets they would get a 2 year sentence and be out in 8 months - the math is ridiculous! The Courts are so backlogged some cases don't even make it to Court for want of prosecution. They offender sits in jail awaiting trial for so long when his time spent is deducted from his sentence, he somehow winds up getting some EXTRA time taken off his sentence as well - for what? Inconveniencing the poor dealer? The legalities of the 'war on drugs' has become a farce. The dealers have been keenly aware for many, many years that there is good money to be made preying on people who have fallen into addiction, or who have mental health issues, and that the monetary gain far outweighs any chance of penalty from the liberal laws or Courts. It's a runaway train the Courts and others in the legal system caused themselves and there's no stopping it now without reformation of the laws and a much tougher attitude towards it, not a more lenient one. Dealers have provided so much drug product to so many people who are now addicted and now their life-long customers, that there is not enough rehab space to even hold the ones who WANT to quit, and very few new facilities for abstention are being built. Instead we built wet facilities and allow the drug dealers to peddle door-to-door practically! To me, it's ludicrous.
It seems to me that places like wet facilities are just an easy way for everyone to tolerate something they really don't want to sink their teeth into by reforming the laws to mean business. We have always been a liberal country and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm saying while I believe Canada is a great country and I love that we are compassionate and peaceful, there are some things in life that can't be dealt with in a substantive fashion with "sunny ways" or by saying "oh well, what can you do - if you can't beat 'em, join 'em?"

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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby tantor » Jan 13th, 2019, 9:17 am

dle wrote:
tantor wrote:I can also speak directly to the topic. Many years ago after a nasty motorcycle accident, I also had an opioid addiction started by a doctor who incrementally increased my dosage until it it was quite high. Then he just cut me off instead of weaning me off. I then got a hold of a black market supplier and my battle began. First off addiction is basically two parts, physical addiction and mental addiction. The physical part really sucks. There comes a point with opioids were there is almost zero euphoric feeling and you take them just to feel normal. When you first try to come off them without weaning the fun begins, usually in the first 24 hours. It starts out mild at first with some sneezing and feeling like a bit of a cold is coming on and then comes the diarrhea. This is like no diarrhea you have ever had! I could literally be running to the washroom every five minutes and it lasts for days. It continues until you are empty and goes on for a bit when you are left to passing bile an extremely painful experience. This is accompanied by vicious cramping. Then comes the cold sweats, pounding headaches and muscle cramps. Then the worst part shows up, the restless legs. It feels like your legs are not your own and a few times I contemplated suicide to make it stop. It makes it absolutely impossible to sleep. This whole process lasts about 2 weeks.
While I would not wish it on my worst enemy I did it, so I know what it's like and what it takes to do it.
The mental part I found to be exactly like the mental part of quitting smoking with the exception of anxiety. For some this can last for months along with greatly diminished energy while the body reverses the damage done over time. I got through this in about 30 days, as counter intuitive as it sounds going to the gym helped me greatly! It seemed almost impossible to get going but man did I feel better after the fact.

So having been through all of this I can honestly say in the overall scheme of things it sucks but it is not that big of a deal. If you can commit to sticking needles in your arms, legs and in between your toes, surely you can live through a couple weeks of physical discomfort and the brain fog that comes afterward.

What you absolutely can not do, is hang around or be around people that are still using or you will fail! At 99.99% of the time at the very least. This is the very reason wet facilities will never do a damn thing to help addicts recover! This is akin to putting a pyromaniac in a room full of matches and gasoline to help him recover. People need to stop listening to these so called experts who clearly have not been through the addiction process themselves. You really will never understand that while it is a journey through hell it is far easier than a life long addiction.

So while I have empathy for these people at the end of the day it is weakness and laziness that keeps them bound in their chains. Yes the mental component plays a big role in it all, but how do you even address that part while their brain is chemically unbalanced by the drugs they are taking. You must push through the physical part to get off of them and then you can actually start to deal with the mental part. Yes the whole process could take quite some time and many will need support all along the way, but it is very short compared to the years of addiction where these people go nowhere in life.

To add to that these people need to be kept away from all the so called friends who still engage in using or the chance of going back to using is almost a guarantee. Our forefathers had to fight through world war and the great depression, things that had no avenue of getting over in a few months. These things were also not something that they elected to do to themselves which is quite often the case with addicts. If we are really concerned about helping these people we need to take off the kids gloves and get to work using some tough love or this becomes a huge waste of time and tax dollars. People who do not want to be helped never will be, period. I quit and I did it on my own with zero external support for one reason and one reason only, because I wanted to!


Thanks for sharing your path and your experience and I'm sorry you had that chapter in your life. I have not (touch wood) had an addiction to anything except cigarettes and that was hard enough to quit but I did it because like you said - I wanted to - but it sure wasn't anything like the hell you describe thank goodness. I tried to quit a few times when I didn't really really want to - I just knew I SHOULD - and it was an epic fail each time. When I did really WANT to I felt a different motivation to get it done, and it really was easier and I made it (21 years) so I understand where you are coming from in that respect. I hope you never have to go through any of that again.

How does one ever experience that WANT to quit a drug if they are constantly exposed to it, allowed to break the law to get it, given a pass to do it illegally, and patted on the head and told it's all ok?

I have never been able to understand how the people pushing for these wet facilities think it's any part of a good idea to put recovering addicts in with users, or anywhere near dealers. Boggles my mind. To me it was just common sense to NOT do that EVER but they do it so thanks for validating the fact.

Can I ask if you were ever in a position to need shelter or be housed in a wet facility? I would really like to hear from someone who has, and whether it helped them quit, or if they are still using. I believe you when you say the experts are going down the wrong path by enabling the continued drug use if they really want to help people. I know they say these facilities are just meant to keep people alive, in hopes they will want to quit. Well, it makes no sense to me to keep giving them drugs and making it so easy for them - what's the motivation to quit? Why can't the facilities be two-part, a detox, or cessation drug section, then rehab? I think the main goal of the place should be to get them OFF drugs, not simply allow them to continue on as they were. There has to be a goal to quit involved in living there, not to just stay alive and be a user.

Good luck - I have a feeling you will beat the demons silly :kick: if they try to get you again!


Thanks Dle, I beat my demons a very long time ago they are never coming back.

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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby featfan » Jan 14th, 2019, 2:09 pm

dle wrote:Ok spooker, since you ask I'll try and explain my thinking on this.

#1 - if one is not discouraged in any way from doing drugs, and is actually provided all their necessities including "harm reduction" with people to watch over them while they are given free rein to do illegal drugs, that's pretty damn encouraging, or enabling at the very least. If they take too much or it's bad drugs someone will save them so they can go do it again without having to do anything to try to prevent it happening again (like quitting drugs), that also sounds pretty encouraging to me. They are in love with their drugs - their whole entire world revolves around getting that next fix. So tell me, with that mindset, what in a wet facility scenario sounds discouraging? It sounds like bloody nirvana to an addict! Just ask one!



https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/b-c ... -1.4968777

A new program that will supply safe opioids to "entrenched addicts" is a step toward ending the opioid crisis' death toll driven by tainted drugs, according to one advocate.

Fifty people who use street drugs will be regularly prescribed opioid pills to crush up and inject, as part of a new "safe supply" program launching in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside.

"It's a small, but I hope seismic shift in the approach that's beginning to recognize the urgency in dealing with the crisis in Canada is about the supply," Don MacPherson, executive director of the Canadian Drug Policy Coalition, told The Current's Anna Maria Tremonti.

Canadians' average life expectancy could be cut by opioid scourge
"I think the urgency is around replacing the deadly supply, and at the same time engaging people in health services."
The program is run by the Portland Housing Society (PHS) and will provide free hydromorphone pills, also known as Dilaudid, to its patients to either take orally or crush and inject. Clients will be able to visit the site up to five times per day.
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Re: Fighting Through Addiction....

Postby tantor » Jan 15th, 2019, 9:07 am

featfan wrote:
dle wrote:Ok spooker, since you ask I'll try and explain my thinking on this.

#1 - if one is not discouraged in any way from doing drugs, and is actually provided all their necessities including "harm reduction" with people to watch over them while they are given free rein to do illegal drugs, that's pretty damn encouraging, or enabling at the very least. If they take too much or it's bad drugs someone will save them so they can go do it again without having to do anything to try to prevent it happening again (like quitting drugs), that also sounds pretty encouraging to me. They are in love with their drugs - their whole entire world revolves around getting that next fix. So tell me, with that mindset, what in a wet facility scenario sounds discouraging? It sounds like bloody nirvana to an addict! Just ask one!



https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/b-c ... -1.4968777

A new program that will supply safe opioids to "entrenched addicts" is a step toward ending the opioid crisis' death toll driven by tainted drugs, according to one advocate.

Fifty people who use street drugs will be regularly prescribed opioid pills to crush up and inject, as part of a new "safe supply" program launching in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside.

"It's a small, but I hope seismic shift in the approach that's beginning to recognize the urgency in dealing with the crisis in Canada is about the supply," Don MacPherson, executive director of the Canadian Drug Policy Coalition, told The Current's Anna Maria Tremonti.

Canadians' average life expectancy could be cut by opioid scourge
"I think the urgency is around replacing the deadly supply, and at the same time engaging people in health services."
The program is run by the Portland Housing Society (PHS) and will provide free hydromorphone pills, also known as Dilaudid, to its patients to either take orally or crush and inject. Clients will be able to visit the site up to five times per day.


Well I can tell you right here and now that had this been offered when I was battling addiction, I would not have succeeded in quitting! I would probably be dead. The problem with entrenched drug addicts is that they will use the program but if while out and about they run into a buddy that has some drugs and is willing to share then pow right into the system. Dilaudid is what I got started on and you build a tolerance to it very quickly, so unless they are willing to increase the supply exponentially along the way these addicts will still supplement with street drugs. Diluadid has a very short half life also, meaning the high does not last long. So once again addicts will supplement with street drugs. Just another stupid program poorly thought out by people who have never been addicted. Krava a natural plant has helped many people come off opioids, I have no personal experience but have read lots of anecdotal evidence. It is banned in Canada and I believe just recently banned in the US, drug companies hate natural things that do something better than their pharmaceuticals. They would still be better off on a methadone program slowly reducing their prescription, but once again if you turn them loose they will supplement with street drugs. This is why all of these stupid programs are a waste of time and money and do nothing to actually help these people. You have to have controls in place because these addicts have zero will power even if part of them wants to be helped, so you have to supply that missing link in the form of loose confinement. I am not suggesting a prison environment. Something more like a gated community with programs to enrich and educate them and get them to slowly integrate into having increased responsibility for themselves. That is the path to feeling self worth, which is something most of these people either never had or have lost a long time ago.

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