Castanet

Ah, that's an insightful perspective.

Is it too much to ask that one of these three towers ends up looking like a cheese grater? I miss the enthusiasm of a building going up that had some moniker about it.

There are similar developments in Coal Harbour surrounding the housing cooperative. The BC Housing proposal up on Bertram doesn't seem to be stopping the 46 storey "2020" tower from applying for development permits.

No idea what the BC Housing on Bertram has to do with this conversation but Kelowna is only missing a couple million people to compare it to Vancouver .

CrystalCity wrote:The Conservatory was in the middle of "nowhere" at the time (the commercial retail that now exists around it are a hassle to access) and people said the same about One Water Street (rumour is that an Asian Market similar to the one next to Yamato is going in there). If they can score some retail similar to Pacific Centre or Portage Place in Winnipeg, it could work.

Again comparisons to Vancouver lack a few million residents for support and do we really want our city to be a clone of Winnipeg?

The City of Vancouver is only 600,000ish people, while the Metro is 2 million (including Surrey which is another 600,000), but that is beside the point. Projects can easily go up within sight of resources deemed essential for the homeless, which was what I was alluding to with the developments on Bertram (and for that matter Winnipeg).

Okay, I get it you dislike towers, so then what alternative do you propose for improving the area?

cv23 wrote:

CrystalCity wrote:The Conservatory was in the middle of "nowhere" at the time (the commercial retail that now exists around it are a hassle to access) and people said the same about One Water Street (rumour is that an Asian Market similar to the one next to Yamato is going in there). If they can score some retail similar to Pacific Centre or Portage Place in Winnipeg, it could work.

Again comparisons to Vancouver lack a few million residents for support and do we really want our city to be a clone of Winnipeg?

Whats wrong with Winnipeg?!? It's a beautiful dump!

My take is Milroy/Westcorp are more of a lobby group that works to gain variances and
zoning changes to make the grounds an added value asset.
Smoothing the way, so to speak, for the actual ground and construction companies
to then purchase and take over, or partner with.
Their past main deal is in taking over existing, already constructed properties,
Clearing lower demographic tenants, re-branding with a fresh coat of paint
and moving in higher end tenants.

I've been saying for a long time that Milroy/Westcorp themselves will never be the ones to build that downtown "hotel". Hotels can take decades to provide profits for the owners at the revenues nightly rentals provide. Westcorp will focus on the Hiawatha for the next decade as units that are sold provide immediate and substantial returns.

Lenders usually want to see 40% presales for condo projects. Given not only the flood of condo units already on or about to hit the market sales for 40% of even one tower at this location will be very tough let alone 40% of three towers. The costs of the lower floor retail and parkade stucture will have to be considered as part of the first tower constructed as these will have to be built in the initial phase. Such costs could easily make a lender require an even higher percentage of sales for the first tower making actual construction even more difficult. This is way to ambitious a project for that location, the current market in a community the size of Kelowna.

cv23 wrote: Why even have an OCP if Council is just going to ignore it to such an extreme?

Meh. It's been discussed before. Step away from the dead horse, will ya?

CrystalCity wrote:The City of Vancouver is only 600,000ish people, while the Metro is 2 million (including Surrey which is another 600,000), but that is beside the point. Projects can easily go up within sight of resources deemed essential for the homeless, which was what I was alluding to with the developments on Bertram (and for that matter Winnipeg).

Okay, I get it you dislike towers, so then what alternative do you propose for improving the area?

The City of Van, as you prefer to refer to it, is still six times the population of Kelowna.
The 40+ story project on Bertram has been actually started long before the BC Housing project was even proposed and you can bet a sizeable share of the purchasers in that 40 storey project were not at all happy to hear about BC Housings announcement. That situation is completely opposite to the three tower proposal as the "services" already exist and are on both sides of the proposal. If as suggested by some that the old McD's location, a block away and in clear sight, becomes social housing the 3 tower proposal will start to become surrounded by a group very unconducive to sales.

Where did I ever state I dislike towers?

Even Steven wrote:

cv23 wrote: Why even have an OCP if Council is just going to ignore it to such an extreme?

Meh. It's been discussed before. Step away from the dead horse, will ya?

Glad to hear there are others who think that present Council has rendered the OCP dead and a waste of tax dollars.

I'm getting somewhat confused. Are we talking about the same development at Bertram? I'm not referring to the tower that is part of Bernard block on the Bargain store site, but the one just announced behind it which is to be wedged between Bertram and Brooklyn. If that had been in the works for year, then that is news to me, or is it the final piece of the same development?

I think it's a missed opportunity for the old McD's to be built as social housing, but that is for another thread. I understand your perspective regarding the financing, and yes Kelowna is neither Winnipeg (also 600,000) nor Vancouver its demographics are changing, plus the skywalk has Portage Place/Pacific Centre vibes. How about Cornwall Centre in Regina? Definitely not Metrotown. I jest, but the lack of alternatives dulls me since there are opportunities to expand beyond being a resort town.

My understanding that the OCP is a 20 document, and the city is currently in the process of establishing the one going into 2040. Is this the same OCP being talked about or a previous one?

I'm getting somewhat confused. Are we talking about the same development at Bertram? I'm not referring to the tower that is part of Bernard block on the Bargain store site, but the one just announced behind it which is to be wedged between Bertram and Brooklyn. If that had been in the works for year, then that is news to me, or is it the final piece of the same development?

The tower to be constructed on what was the parking lot of the Bargain store (behind it) is part of the Brookyn project and has been part since its inception so in no way "just announced".

My understanding that the OCP is a 20 document, and the city is currently in the process of establishing the one going into 2040. Is this the same OCP being talked about or a previous one?

CityofKelowna wrote:How our city looks and feels is shaped by our Official Community Plan, which is currently being updated to plan for the next 20 years. The update will primarily refine and update land uses, mapping and policies to reflect the community's vision (as captured through Imagine Kelowna) and to clearly signal where development is to be accommodated and supported with corresponding infrastructure and amenities. The OCP provides a policy framework for Council by addressing issues such as housing, transportation, infrastructure, parks, economic development and the natural and social environment.

Unfortunately the present City Council has done everything but follow the path the current OCP that City Hall officially adopted and that residents and stakeholders helped set up to outline a path for future development within this community. Given present Councils total disregard for the currently officially adopted OCP if and when a new OCP is adopted what reason is there to believe Council will follow that new OCP any more than they have not followed the currently officially adopted OCP presently in place. One can hardly call it following what is supposed to be an "Official" plan's guidelines if Council approves a proposal not even close to but rather almost 4 times the height under the current zoning and currently adopted OCP.
Why waste years of civic staff time, years worth of community members input and an untold amount of taxpayer money on formulating and officially adopting a document Council doesn't even consider when making decisions?

cv23 wrote: The tower to be constructed on what was the parking lot of the Bargain store (behind it) is part of the Brookyn project and has been part since its inception so in no way "just announced".

Wow this is still so confusing. That's what I thought when Bertram and the Bernard Block was announced, but then Brooklyn, and the Bernard Block are by the Mission Group and the "2020" tower are by New Town, so are the Mission Group and New Town one and the same?

I was hoping the 3 tower project would shake things up a bit.

Wow this is still so confusing. That's what I thought when Bertram and the Bernard Block was announced, but then Brooklyn, and the Bernard Block are by the Mission Group and the "2020" tower are by New Town, so are the Mission Group and New Town one and the same?

New Towne is simply an architectural and engineering firm that actual developers like Mission Group often hire to design buildings and make initial proposals.
The new (four days ago) "2020" tower proposal is not part of Mission Groups Bertram Block/Brooklyn development but right beside it. Both of us are apparently getting confused with so many proposals all so close together and in such a flurry.
With all the available land in the downtown core why someone would want to construct, or live in, a building with only a view of another building right beside for 36 stories it is beyond me but to each their own. I'd bet this latest proposal makes the second, yet to be constructed, Bernard Block tower yet another tough sell as this latest proposal will eliminate the view from an entire side of the building and the first tower blocks any view from the other side of the building.
As far as people interested in paying big dollars to live beside/near social housing goes we will have to see if this latest proposal generates enough interest to actually get shovels in the ground. At least, so far, the BC Housing proposal is not a wet facility. I also doubt it will feature all the sidewalk inhabitants currently and in the foreseeable future found on Leon( Gospel Mission etc own their properties so won't be moving).
At one time there was even a proposal for two towers right behind The Madison and called Monaco but I believe proposal is as far as it ever made it, like many these days. What ever happened to Aqualini's proposed tower for Bernard near Lulu Lemon?
Even though current zoning is 12 stories we all know Council will approve the proposed 46 at that location without any hesitation. Just who is actually going to live in this plethora of proposed units if actually built or will they all be STR's(hotels)?

At least we got something straightened out!

I think the Aquilini tower has now become amalgamated with the Westcorp development.

The Bertram tower will have to content with Brooklyn also, however unlike "2020" it and the office portion aren't as high, so won't block as many views. That said, I did notice some flags on their website as to who the target buyers may be. Then again not everyone is looking for anything more than a roof over their head. For someone making enough and working shift work, an internal unit could have merit.

My understanding of the 3 tower Leon project is that there are going to be rental units also in one of towers as well a supporting donations to the Gospel Mission.

I think the Aquilini tower has now become amalgamated with the Westcorp development.
The Bertram tower will have to content with Brooklyn also, however unlike "2020" it and the office portion aren't as high, so won't block as many views. That said, I did notice some flags on their website as to who the target buyers may be. Then again not everyone is looking for anything more than a roof over their head. For someone making enough and working shift work, an internal unit could have merit.
My understanding of the 3 tower Leon project is that there are going to be rental units also in one of towers as well a supporting donations to the Gospel Mission.

Actually it appears the Aqualini project is still very much alive, independent of Milroy and in it's originally proposed location.
http://avenuehomes.ca/portfolio/24-kelowna/


As for the 2020 tower the news article stated there was to be another 16 story tower abutting 2020 and Brooklyn so when you add in 20 stories by BC Housing and UBCO's development that is going to be a very busy area. The communal living suites proposed for 2020 are likely directed at students from the UBCO campus but not able to secure any oncampus housing.

I haven't read the entire Leon proposal yet. Are the Gospel Mission donations mentioned there?