46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby TylerM4 » Jan 18th, 2021, 9:59 am

CrystalCity wrote:Yes it is, that's why hydrant caps are painted different colours, and it's actually illegal to paint them differently.


So why are they labeled?

Sounds to me like they're labeled/painted different colors to indicate the pressure anticipated. To me that would mean they're unregulated and to help make up for the varying pressures as a result of being unregulated they've instigated a process of painting the hydrants different colors.

In other words "Are all of the hydrants downtown painted with a color that indicates high pressure because they're low in elevation"?
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby Bsuds » Jan 18th, 2021, 10:05 am

I was surprised to read that the static PSI in fire hydrant is only 20psi and the color of they hydrant (at least in the US) indicates the GPM from that particular hydrant.

This is so that the Firefighters know what they have for a source.

https://thenewswheel.com/why-are-fire-h ... they-mean/
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby LANDM » Jan 18th, 2021, 10:05 am

CrystalCity wrote:Because each neighborhood block has been zoned under the BC Land Titles Act. I live in a strata and took the course provided by the CHOA (Condominium Home Owners Association) and BC Housing in the fall of 2019 which is why this info is still relatively fresh in my mind. Just because a parcel has been zoned in a particular way doesn't mean it must remain that way. The parcels were likely zoned decades ago.


Zoning is not under the BC Land titles act.

Zoning can and does change, usually at the request of a landowner. Approving authorities often upzone a property but seldom downzone properties due to potential legal liability from an owner (loss of value).

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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby CrystalCity » Jan 18th, 2021, 10:08 am

Not sure, the city's info on hydrants is here:
https://www.kelowna.ca/city-services/safety-emergency-services/fire-department/fire-hydrants

I checked on google maps and the closest hydrant to that parcel is on the corner of north corner on Bertram (there is another located at the corner of Bertram and Bernard. Both caps are Blue and noted as "Very good flow". I live at a higher elevation and my nearest cap is green which is noted as "Good for residential". Homes at the top of Clifton are Orange. The ones around Reid's Corner and up in Wilden are also blue. Mind you, there is more than one water supplier in the city. :135:

LANDM, my mistake, I meant listed under the land title, not regulated by the land titles act.
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby seewood » Jan 18th, 2021, 3:35 pm

Oh, this is fun. I feel like I'm back as a fire instructor..

TylerM4 wrote:seewood wrote:
I have a question for any building engineers here, I'm thinking the water table in Kelowna is not too far down. Would this have an impact with a 46 story building? How do they build on old lake bottom sediment or to they drive piles to bedrock, where ever that may lie?
The answer is no. They're not pumping the water up from a well, they're pumping from a hydrant that has it's own pressure. They don't "suck" water through the hydrant or anything like that, only boost it's pressure if/when needed.


Not sure where you get the well idea from???
The fire truck does " suck water through a hydrant at times. Depending on the state of the water mains, departments have various residual pressures to leave on the water main. IE the main might have 80 pounds static and you connect and start flowing to the various hose lines. The demand is such that the 80 pounds is not sufficient for the flow at the nozzles so the operator will draw down on the main leaving perhaps 5-20 pounds at the hydrant depending on the state of the mains. Too much sucking and you get negative pressure on the main and if it is old corroded ductile iron for example, the pipe collapses on itself and you now have a water main hole/leak. Been there , done that.

CrystalCity wrote:TylerM4 wrote:
I don't think hydrant pressure is regulated so I believe pressure would be higher near the lake but in no way sure of that.

Yes it is, that's why hydrant caps are painted different colours, and it's actually illegal to paint them differently.


Hydrant pressure is not "regulated" however it is a function of water main pressure. Jurisdictions put enough pressure in the main to provide domestic service and fire flows required. I have hooked to hydrants that show 30 pounds and to ones that show 150 pounds. These pressures are controlled by pressure reducing valves along the water mains to prevent excessive pressures as elevation decreases. In the case of a fire and water demand increases and pressures drop, the valve is designed to open up to allow more flow. When they are not maintained they can stick and then water flows are not sufficient for an increased demand like a fire.

Many jurisdictions with the man power do paint the hydrants caps various colours. Nothing to do with pressures but they show what volume in gallons/minute of water can come from that hydrant.
"The colors indicate the rated water-flow capacity of that particular hydrant: Red indicates water-flow capacity of less than 500 gallons-per-minute (GPM). Orange indicates water-flow capacity of 500 to 999 GPM. Green indicates water-flow capacity of 1,000 to 1,499 GPM.Nov 10, 2020"
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby casey60 » Jan 18th, 2021, 4:36 pm

Just to confirm, the Fire Chief I assume has input on these towers during council deliberation?

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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby BC Landlord » Jan 18th, 2021, 5:38 pm

seewood wrote:Water for fire fighting at the 46th floor is coming from above reservoirs, reservoir is being topped up via relay pumps.


I might be mistaken, but my understanding is that those reservoirs (usually at the rooftop), are not designed to last very long. To feed just one fire hose off it, and just for one hour, you would need at least 30,000 Gal tank. That's huge. If you want to top it up from bellow (fire engine) you would still need at least 200 Psi pump for water to start dripping out, let alone have some meaningful flow. Also, I am not sure what pumps (other than fire engines) are you talking about when you shut the power off to the building, which I believe fire crews normally do as a first thing on arrival?
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby seewood » Jan 18th, 2021, 6:14 pm

BC Landlord wrote:I might be mistaken, but my understanding is that those reservoirs (usually at the rooftop), are not designed to last very long. To feed just one fire hose off it, and just for one hour, you would need at least 30,000 Gal tank. That's huge. If you want to top it up from bellow (fire engine) you would still need at least 200 Psi pump for water to start dripping out, let alone have some meaningful flow. Also, I am not sure what pumps (other than fire engines) are you talking about when you shut the power off to the building, which I believe fire crews normally do as a first thing on arrival?


The reservoir at the top of the building might not be a large capacity for weight reasons, however it is of sufficient size to flow water through the sprinkler heads for a time. I have seen sprinkler heads put out a crepe paper fire in a store room. They do work. Fire does not start as an instant inferno but goes through various stages to get to that inferno, unless water or some other part of the fire triangle/tetrahedron interrupts that fire. If the fire load is large and fire does get a good hold, then more water or foam is required to knock the fire down. The bucket-heads perform this task.
When we connected to a stand pipe on the side of a building, SOP stated deliver 100 psi to the connection. This is sufficient to boost to a school, maybe 10 stories stories to leave enough pressure at the nozzle to flow a decent volume. When you are talking 46 stories the boost from the stand pipes at ground level is not going to the 46th floor directly. You need a huge pump driven by a huge engine. In high rises there are reservoirs at various floor as you move up the building.
These reservoirs will feed fire lines below them. ALSO these reservoirs are capable of pumping water ( electric motor/pump) up the building if a higher reservoir is drained to a point they need more water. Numerous reservoirs with pumps pushing water up a few floors is easier and cheaper that one giant pump that need a giant engine to turn it.

The power is not always turned off to the building when a high rise has a fire. Might kill the power to the impacted floor. Remember seeing fire dept. switches/'key/over ride access in elevators? Fire guys ( gals) might take an elevator to quickly get up to a floor or two below where the fire is.

Personally, I believe a high rise of 46 stories will have the fire suppression aspect pretty well figured out. At another high rise I am familiar with, has regular inspections from the jurisdictions fire dept. to the tune of 4 times a year.
What may be an issue here is manpower available if a fire does break out on perhaps the 35th floor. If there is no suppression a fire can double in size every minute. With functioning sprinklers, heat gets absorbed by the water which slows the build or even puts the fire out.
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby CrystalCity » Jan 18th, 2021, 7:43 pm

seewood wrote:What may be an issue here is manpower available if a fire does break out on perhaps the 35th floor. If there is no suppression a fire can double in size every minute. With functioning sprinklers, heat gets absorbed by the water which slows the build or even puts the fire out.

Are you talking hired by the Department or are you factoring in volunteer fighters?
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby seewood » Jan 18th, 2021, 9:47 pm

^^^^ career members only. In a composite department it is rare to have paid on call members do any of the fun stuff. Poc usually are the hose rollers after the fire.
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby Mrmarvingardens » Jan 18th, 2021, 9:57 pm

Is it time to change the heading of this thread?
How about...My love of Fire and Fire Engines
or subtitled "The pressure and coefficient of the 11/2 inch hose up 43 stories might be affected if the wind or lack thereof is blowing from the northeast instead of the northwest, but this will change because the building is now proposed to be 46 stories.We wont have to purchase the big fire truck that can rise 300 metres.
All the fire pipes will be colour coded in red ...no wait...I think the code recently changed.They are now blue.
with appropriate spigots every 10 floors.That should solve the fire chief problem . :135:

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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby just_browsing » Jan 19th, 2021, 10:20 am

abraham wrote:This is why we use sophisticated fire suppression systems specifically engineered for these buildings! When was the last time you have heard of a modern concrete high rise burning down! I think the OP just doesn’t like high rise buildings! Last time I checked Kelowna is a fast growing city with a growing population and no signs of slowing down!


Blah blah blah, until you educate yourself on WORLD safety requirements for highrises then please don't spread your mis information. You think 24 fire fighters can handle a fire that every other city in the world uses 100 for?

Kelowna's Mayor AND council are 100% responsible for doing what no other city in the world has done with our population. Do we hold them on a pedestal or butcher them in court when something happens in the future?

The Kelowna fire fighters have been trying to lobby their management for years to tell them that the training they are providing for fighting high rise fires in Kelowna is for much much larger departments with copious amounts of resource and is absolutely impossible to achieve unless they at the very least DOUBLE the size of the fire department. DOUBLE the size of the department?! Impossible as it will add a potential 10 million to the tax base.

INSURANCE ALERT!!! What is the solution?

A couple business heads in Kelowna came up with the idea that they will install 3rd party fire equipment on every 7th floor so firefighters would not have to carry as much equipment up with them. Guess what?! This isn't even approved or accepted by the National Fire Protection Agency, which supplies reasonable guidelines for all of North America to ensure safety standards are followed, but the COK thinks it's a great idea to get a workaround in order to put concrete in the sky. hmmmmm

It's quite simple people...the region is simply too small. Kelowna would be perfectly fine if it was situated between other large municipalities and they can work out financial agreements in order to provide the needed mutal aid for any high rise fire. Unfortunately, no matter what you may think, there isn't even enough paid firefighters if you include Vernon, Penticton, Lake Country, Kelowna, West Kelowna, Big White, and Merrit. If you include Kamloops, then we would have JUST enough to satisfy the minimum requirements for high rise firefighting in North America. Amenities come with an expense no matter how you work it out.

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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby just_browsing » Jan 19th, 2021, 10:36 am

casey60 wrote:Just to confirm, the Fire Chief I assume has input on these towers during council deliberation?


I think the entire COK ASSUMES everything. Yes the Fire Chief is welcome at any time to add his input on the towers. Have you heard our in the news at all lately? Great guy with a business degree, but comes from a small Volunteer department just like the last one. The last actual Chief they hired that was a career firefighter was Chief Blanleil. The city likes to headhunt now in order to find the best "personality" for their 4 year agenda. This way there is no "questions" or "backlash"... I think it's working VERY well right now don't you?

I would LOVE for the Media to do an actual REAL story on this. Not just asking City Hall or the Fire Chief, but to actually do an investigative report on it. I KNOW they will be very surprised at what they find out if they lift the corner of the rug up a tiny bit!
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby Mrmarvingardens » Jan 19th, 2021, 9:13 pm

Yes, the last fire chief was someone called Blanleil..I won't say hired.
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Re: 46 stories? Where is our spineless fire chief?

Postby Mrmarvingardens » Jan 19th, 2021, 9:21 pm

Our local election is not until 2022, and someone has already suggested a likely candidate will be Tom Dyas.
NO sir.
I will nominate Johnathon Freisen, head honcho of the Mission Group.
Who better qualified than a chemical trader, and former resident of the Grand Cayman islands.
As mayor, Mr Friesen could pass his own development proposals without being bothered with the peskiness of public hearings, Just good to go!
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