Another week, another high rise proposal for Kelowna

[LANDM]

What is interesting to me is how various people in the Fire Service, and in this forum, discount the intent of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). The Association has based their standards on input from many professional associations to develop a standard to help protect the public and the fire service to the highest possible level. They are upgraded every 3-5 years to incorporate new technology and modernization to stay current. They are incorporated in the building code, fire code, firefighter qualifications, firefighter equipment, fire investigation and I could go on. Why then are we discounting the recommendations of NFPA 1710 for high rises??? As Kelowna grows, and seems to like continuing on the high rise venture, the fire service has to grow with it. The NFPA 1710 standard has taken all variables into consideration to form it's recommendation including sprinklers, construction materials, fire codes, building codes, firefighter training, firefighter equipment, etc.etc.etc.
The more high rises we have the higher the possibility of a catastrophic event that will take lives, public and firefighters. Let's not resist these standards but embrace them for what they are. Safe and effective. There is also the legal implications of a city, council member, Fire Chief or any other decision maker not following the best Standard Of Care available to them in decision making. The NFPA provides them with this best Standard Of Care!!

Retired Captain
Toronto Fire Service

What is your response to the comments by the Kelowna Fire Department to the concerns about high rise fire safety? They seemed to be pretty clear and concise.
The comments in the above post are very motherhood-and-apple-pie generalizations. Safety codes are good etc.

I’m sure the KFD doesn’t disagree and they are doing the best and most professional job they can for a city that is crossing the threshold from low rise to high rise buildings.

Retired Fire Chief
New York Fire Department


not really, but I play one on certain threads

[forum]

...

Don't worry everyone.

You will all get a $1 raise to adjust to the new cost of everything.

[TylerM4]

If the developers pay for the equipment how exactly is the money coming from the existing group of citizens/taxpayers?
Maybe the developers will pass their expense on to new citizens/taxpayers but those are the people expecting the protection

Well, this leads to a bit of a discussion about general economics, but in a nutshell:
- They increase the cost to buy a unit. It's citizens who buy/own these units.

From there, it's a knock-down effect:
- The increased cost/value of the units results in higher property taxes for owners.
- Over time and with future developments, the cost of a highrise apartment in Kelowna in general rises, effecting all citizens living in apartments not just those that live in this particular development.
- Increases in one type of real-estate influence others, rising costs of apartments means costs of alternatives like duplexes and townhouses also increase in value although perhaps not as much.
- More threads are opened on Castanet about the crazy cost of real estate and how more affordable housing is required.

It's not the developers who pay the cost in the end, they simply turn around and pass that cost on to the residents and the community as a whole. Hence, my statement about the citizens of Kelowna paying the cost either way.

[Bsuds]

The problem is that the rest of Kelowna is the ONLY ones who suffer. We completely lose our fire department for hours upon hours should a fire start in any one of these highrises.

Is that fair?

There are lots of non high rise buildings in Kelowna that if were to have a major fire would tax the resources of the FD.

I guess we shouldn't allow any of them?

[seewood]

I wonder if it will take an unfortunate incident in Kelowna where staffing was not sufficient for response time ( second call) or a
rescue at the same time as a heavily involved structure fire has taken hold.
I truly hope not, hoping something does not happen is not a plan.

Really unfortunate that many time it takes an incident for politicians to do something, after the fact. That is why NFPA has standards, usually derived from post incident events.

[alanjh595]

Well, this leads to a bit of a discussion about general economics, but in a nutshell:
- They increase the cost to buy a unit. It's citizens who buy/own these units.

From there, it's a knock-down effect:
- The increased cost/value of the units results in higher property taxes for owners.
- Over time and with future developments, the cost of a highrise apartment in Kelowna in general rises, effecting all citizens living in apartments not just those that live in this particular development.
- Increases in one type of real-estate influence others, rising costs of apartments means costs of alternatives like duplexes and townhouses also increase in value although perhaps not as much.
- More threads are opened on Castanet about the crazy cost of real estate and how more affordable housing is required.

It's not the developers who pay the cost in the end, they simply turn around and pass that cost on to the residents and the community as a whole. Hence, my statement about the citizens of Kelowna paying the cost either way.

Aaawhhh yes, the price of progress and growth.

more affordable housing

"affordable housing" is a drain, just like new investment is the supply.

Just like, without the constant supply of investment, what is the need for a drain?
Would a sink need a drain, if there was no water?

No money, no water, no sink, no drain. If there was a stopper put in the drain, there would be much less water needed before the sink was filled up.

We are all paying more because there is city water and sewer, and we are happy to pay for such convivences.
If you lived in an area where the water came from a well, that you had to dig yourself, and on a septic tank/field system, that you had to have pumped out........you can bet that you would be much more conscious about how much water was used and what went down the drain.

Ever wonder why people that live in rural areas drive dirty cars and clothes?
Because they have learned to appreciate what they have and have learned what they can live without.
~~~They live with much less TP and wash their potatoes in a pot of water, rather than under a running tap.
~~~A shower once every 3 days is far less costly than one every night/morning.

[Queller]

What is interesting to me is how various people in the Fire Service, and in this forum, discount the intent of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). The Association has based their standards on input from many professional associations to develop a standard to help protect the public and the fire service to the highest possible level. They are upgraded every 3-5 years to incorporate new technology and modernization to stay current. They are incorporated in the building code, fire code, firefighter qualifications, firefighter equipment, fire investigation and I could go on. Why then are we discounting the recommendations of NFPA 1710 for high rises??? As Kelowna grows, and seems to like continuing on the high rise venture, the fire service has to grow with it. The NFPA 1710 standard has taken all variables into consideration to form it's recommendation including sprinklers, construction materials, fire codes, building codes, firefighter training, firefighter equipment, etc.etc.etc.
The more high rises we have the higher the possibility of a catastrophic event that will take lives, public and firefighters. Let's not resist these standards but embrace them for what they are. Safe and effective. There is also the legal implications of a city, council member, Fire Chief or any other decision maker not following the best Standard Of Care available to them in decision making. The NFPA provides them with this best Standard Of Care!!

Retired Captain
Toronto Fire Service

What is your response to the comments by the Kelowna Fire Department to the concerns about high rise fire safety? They seemed to be pretty clear and concise.
The comments in the above post are very motherhood-and-apple-pie generalizations. Safety codes are good etc.

I’m sure the KFD doesn’t disagree and they are doing the best and most professional job they can for a city that is crossing the threshold from low rise to high rise buildings.

Retired Fire Chief
New York Fire Department


not really, but I play one on certain threads

Hmm. Nice try. Anyone with a basic understanding of Emergency Services know that it is called the "Fire Department of New York" (FDNY), not New York Fire Department.
Also, as johnmartin appended, it is Toronto Fire Service, not Toronto Fire Department, so why don't we give Capt. Martin (Ret.) the benefit of the doubt, and a little respect, and assume he actually knows what he's talking about? He certainly seems to have a good knowledge of NFPA standards.

[alanjh595]

Hmm. Nice try. Anyone with a basic understanding of Emergency Services know that it is called the "Fire Department of New York" (FDNY), not New York Fire Department.
Also, as johnmartin appended, it is Toronto Fire Service, not Toronto Fire Department, so why don't we give Capt. Martin (Ret.) the benefit of the doubt, and a little respect, and assume he actually knows what he's talking about? He certainly seems to have a good knowledge of NFPA standards.

So, let's see if I get this right......2/3 of the post is about the proper name designation of 2 fire departments......
the other 1/6 is a pat on the back for Capt. Martin.....
the remaining 1/6 is.............well on second thought,........Capt. Martin gets the full 1/3.

I would really like to support the KELOWNA Fire department and all of it's members that do courageous things every day in an effort to save other people's lives, but spouting off about NFPA standards does not shine a good light upon these fine men and women.

[Queller]

Ha. To clarify the clarification, call it a rant if you want, the fact remains that the KFD prevention staff, and the Fire Chief are administrators, not frontline firefighters, and tell the media what the City corporate position is. That's about it.
Asking any frontline firefighter in Kelowna, including the fire officers, off-duty, without a camera in their face, if they feel the Dept. is capable of effectively fighting a fire in a high-rise in Kelowna, the answer will be a resounding no.

Ahhh, the old argument of the low man on the totem pole....."boots on the ground know better than the people in charge".
While it may or may not be true in individual cases, decision making from the bottom up seldom works in reality.

The fact is, you can ask frontline firefighters whatever you want....they do not have the ability to make the decisions. Their opinion is only slightly more valuable than the opinions of anyone on this thread...in a realistic sense.

Successful leaders listen to their staff, and value their input. Draconian "I am the boss" leaders are generally destined to fail in the modern age, if they are unable to engage and motivate their staff.


“When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new.”

― The Dalai Lama

[Jonrox]

Out of curiosity, what is the rate of major fires in high rises worldwide? It seems to me that given the number of high rises worldwide, major incidents don't happen often at all. By no means am I saying they don't happen... they just don't seem to happen often.

Looking on Wikipedia there are 2 fires listed for 2019 and three for 2020. It says the list is incomplete - I'm just wondering how incomplete it is. And of all of the fires listed, it seems a lot of them occur during construction, are contained to only a few floors, and most of them don't result in any deaths.

[Queller]

Hmm. Nice try. Anyone with a basic understanding of Emergency Services know that it is called the "Fire Department of New York" (FDNY), not New York Fire Department.
Also, as johnmartin appended, it is Toronto Fire Service, not Toronto Fire Department, so why don't we give Capt. Martin (Ret.) the benefit of the doubt, and a little respect, and assume he actually knows what he's talking about? He certainly seems to have a good knowledge of NFPA standards.

So, let's see if I get this right......2/3 of the post is about the proper name designation of 2 fire departments......
the other 1/6 is a pat on the back for Capt. Martin.....
the remaining 1/6 is.............well on second thought,........Capt. Martin gets the full 1/3.

I would really like to support the KELOWNA Fire department and all of it's members that do courageous things every day in an effort to save other people's lives, but spouting off about NFPA standards does not shine a good light upon these fine men and women.

Um, nope. The post was an attempt to show the lack of knowledge about Fire Dept.'s demonstrated by a previous poster's attempt to belittle Capt. Martin's experience and knowledge. If you're going to create a fake signature to try and ridicule someone, maybe get it right? Google is your friend (sometimes).
Yes, the men and women of the KELOWNA Fire Dept. do fine work every day. As do all emergency services in this town. The KELOWNA Fire Dept. follows pretty much all NFPA standards (building codes, sprinkler codes, fire truck codes, equipment codes, dispatch codes) as a best practice, just for some reason it chooses to ignore the staffing code. Why? My guess would be money. The KELOWNA Fire Chief could probably answer that better than me, though. Or maybe ask the Mayor.

[johnmartin]

Just to let you know the Kelowna Professional Fire Fighters Association president is now raising his concerns regarding NFPA1710 staffing levels for high rise fires. Here is the link: https://globalnews.ca/news/7644827/fire ... -response/
I have been involved in over 60 high rise fires in my 31 year career and all are very unique. The staffing level standard is for safety purposes in supplying manpower in all scenarios. There are many key sectors that have to be covered to obtain a positive outcome to any high rise fire. Some of these sectors are, pump operations, initial attack team, rapid intervention team, search and rescue teams, entry control, evacuation teams for occupants, elevator control, safety officer, ventilation team, medical care team, etc. As you can see this is substantial. All these sectors are needed in even small apartment kitchen fires, not only to extinguish the fire, but to mitigate smoke conditions so that occupants can return to there units in safety. This is why the fire service has separate training requirements for high rises. I can only supply accurate information and let you make your own conclusions.

Retired Captain
Toronto Fire Service

[Boosted632]

removed

[voice of reason]

Get used to it. The North American ideology of building cities outwards is unsustainable, only one way to go for an ever increasing population

what exactly makes it unsustainable? this is a huge country with nothing but land. there is a city every 500kms and the rest of it is forest .its not like canada is going to run out of land .we are one of the largest countries in the world with the lowest population density in the world. i do not buy that we have to build up because we can not build out. we should build up as well but that is a lame excuse to say we can not build outward

[seewood]

what exactly makes it unsustainable? this is a huge country with nothing but land.

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