Everyone deserves a home.

voice of reason
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by voice of reason »

part of the problem is they dont build low end homes anymore . they build homes for the rich and homes for the people on govt assistance ie: mentally ill or drug addicted but nothing for the lower middle class and working poor . its pretty bad when you see trailers in parks for 425k and you dont even own the land . we are throwing up towers in the downtown area for higher end apartments but they stopped building small houses and cheep apartments years ago . after ww2 there was an effort to build houses for people to live in. the houses were basic and small and so were the yards . it gave people a place to raise a family . its no wonder younger couples dont have kids anymore when they will never have a place to call their own
TylerM4
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by TylerM4 »

spooker wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:14 am Buying into the idea that all it takes is hard work to be successful is too simple of an idea ... people need the opportunity to get into a place they can afford, not have the goalposts keep moving further away ... and yes, we do need to get away from the entitled idea that we all deserve a SFH ...
No, it's not too simple:

Work full time at minimum wage, plus some hustle like renting out a bedroom or finding a side income of some type, plus some sacrifice/fiscal responsibility like using public transportation and avoiding eating out and you should be able to afford a home. Now that home might only be a 2 bedroom apartment in an older building, but it's owned.

Is the above achievable? Well, let's do some basic math:
- $300k will buy you a basic 2 bedroom condo in Kelowna.
- Full time pay working minimum wage is approx $3000/month (before taxes)
- Mortgage on $300k at today's rates is approx $1750/month

From what I see, an individual would definitely need that side income to make it happen as the cost of owning the home would essentially eat up 100% of income. It would be very tight, but looks possible. You'd need to do something like rent out the 2nd bedroom for $800/month and use that money to pay for utilities, groceries, etc.
TylerM4
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by TylerM4 »

Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:25 am ask yourself, if you were just starting off today could you afford the first home or the home you're living in right now today ? most likely you couldn't or you would need some help for the down payment

micro suites going for $500-$700K- Townhouses and duplexes $800-$900K and most SFH start at $850K and those ones usually need lots of upgrading or a mobile home starting at $300K- not much selection and I guarantee the selection you had when you first bought was much better and more in tune with the wages that you were making
2 bedroom condo's can be found starting at $300k. Brand new single bedrooms for $275k.

You put this to the wrong person:
My current home - No probably not. But could I buy my 1st home again - Yes absolutely. But understand this:
1) I literally bought the 3rd cheapest stand alone home in Kelowna that had a suite. The other 2 cheaper homes should have been condemned, there was no saving them.
2) I relied on the rental income of the suite to help pay the mortgage.
3) I rented out a room to help pay the mortgage (later I moved in my girlfriend to also help cover costs).
4) I put a huge amount of time and effort into fixing that place up.
Patron
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Patron »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:08 pm
spooker wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:14 am Buying into the idea that all it takes is hard work to be successful is too simple of an idea ... people need the opportunity to get into a place they can afford, not have the goalposts keep moving further away ... and yes, we do need to get away from the entitled idea that we all deserve a SFH ...
No, it's not too simple:

Work full time at minimum wage, plus some hustle like renting out a bedroom or finding a side income of some type, plus some sacrifice/fiscal responsibility like using public transportation and avoiding eating out and you should be able to afford a home. Now that home might only be a 2 bedroom apartment in an older building, but it's owned.

Is the above achievable? Well, let's do some basic math:
- $300k will buy you a basic 2 bedroom condo in Kelowna.
- Full time pay working minimum wage is approx $3000/month (before taxes)
- Mortgage on $300k at today's rates is approx $1750/month

From what I see, an individual would definitely need that side income to make it happen as the cost of owning the home would essentially eat up 100% of income. It would be very tight, but looks possible. You'd need to do something like rent out the 2nd bedroom for $800/month and use that money to pay for utilities, groceries, etc.
what about the Down payment ? where does that come from ? and when you're paying a high rent, saving for one is almost impossible- also did you add the strata fees/property taxes which are only increasing ?

and how many decent $300K condos are out there that do have reasonable strata fees and a decent contingency fund ? not many- it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Patron »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:16 pm
Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:25 am ask yourself, if you were just starting off today could you afford the first home or the home you're living in right now today ? most likely you couldn't or you would need some help for the down payment

micro suites going for $500-$700K- Townhouses and duplexes $800-$900K and most SFH start at $850K and those ones usually need lots of upgrading or a mobile home starting at $300K- not much selection and I guarantee the selection you had when you first bought was much better and more in tune with the wages that you were making
2 bedroom condo's can be found starting at $300k. Brand new single bedrooms for $275k.

You put this to the wrong person:
My current home - No probably not. But could I buy my 1st home again - Yes absolutely. But understand this:
1) I literally bought the 3rd cheapest stand alone home in Kelowna that had a suite. The other 2 cheaper homes should have been condemned, there was no saving them.
2) I relied on the rental income of the suite to help pay the mortgage.
3) I rented out a room to help pay the mortgage (later I moved in my girlfriend to also help cover costs).
4) I put a huge amount of time and effort into fixing that place up.
what year did you buy and did you declare the suite's rental income ? solid questions that make a big difference
Nedroj
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Nedroj »

Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:22 pm
TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:08 pm

No, it's not too simple:

Work full time at minimum wage, plus some hustle like renting out a bedroom or finding a side income of some type, plus some sacrifice/fiscal responsibility like using public transportation and avoiding eating out and you should be able to afford a home. Now that home might only be a 2 bedroom apartment in an older building, but it's owned.

Is the above achievable? Well, let's do some basic math:
- $300k will buy you a basic 2 bedroom condo in Kelowna.
- Full time pay working minimum wage is approx $3000/month (before taxes)
- Mortgage on $300k at today's rates is approx $1750/month

From what I see, an individual would definitely need that side income to make it happen as the cost of owning the home would essentially eat up 100% of income. It would be very tight, but looks possible. You'd need to do something like rent out the 2nd bedroom for $800/month and use that money to pay for utilities, groceries, etc.
what about the Down payment ? where does that come from ? and when you're paying a high rent, saving for one is almost impossible- also did you add the strata fees/property taxes which are only increasing ?

and how many decent $300K condos are out there that do have reasonable strata fees and a decent contingency fund ? not many- it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be
That is the issue with Condos/Townhouses the additional 250-550$ a month in strata fees on top of your mortgage makes the total monthly payment almost on par with buying an older home. So why would anyone buy a Condo or Townhouse?

Also where are these 300k condos?

From a quick Google search "Condos for sale in Kelowna" I get this:

https://www.realtor.ca/bc/kelowna/condos-for-sale

Yes, there is a 0 bedroom 1 bath condo for sale for 319,000$ but the vast majority of condos for sale are anywhere from 420,000 for 1 bed, 1 bath on Sutherland Ave to 1,199,900$ for a 2 bed 2 bath condo on Abbott.

Similar condos that I currently live in 2 bed, 2 bath 1100sqft in west Kelowna are selling for 550,00$. A decent single-family detached home is selling for around $700,000+
'I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand' - Confucius
TylerM4
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by TylerM4 »

Nedroj wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:51 pm That is the issue with Condos/Townhouses the additional 250-550$ a month in strata fees on top of your mortgage makes the total monthly payment almost on par with buying an older home. So why would anyone buy a Condo or Townhouse?

Also where are these 300k condos?

From a quick Google search "Condos for sale in Kelowna" I get this:

https://www.realtor.ca/bc/kelowna/condos-for-sale

Yes, there is a 0 bedroom 1 bath condo for sale for 319,000$ but the vast majority of condos for sale are anywhere from 420,000 for 1 bed, 1 bath on Sutherland Ave to 1,199,900$ for a 2 bed 2 bath condo on Abbott.

Similar condos that I currently live in 2 bed, 2 bath 1100sqft in west Kelowna are selling for 550,00$. A decent single-family detached home is selling for around $700,000+
Just curious, have you ever owned a piece of property? It doesn't seem that way based on a couple of things like not understanding that paying strata is cheaper than paying maintenance costs for a stand alone home, or how to look for/search for properties to buy.

Yes, you need to pay the strata. Yes it costs money. But it's cheaper than paying maintenance costs associated with owning a stand alone home. Own a condo, you pay the strata - own a house you pay the cost of replacing the roof, or fixing utilities/services to your home, or pay to maintain the yard, etc.

There are plenty of examples of Condo's for $300k. Why are you using Google to search for property?
- Go to realtor.ca to search for property for sale, not google.
- Set your location as Kelowna
- Set the filter for Condo/Strata
- Set the sort by "Lowest price". 2 bedroom units start popping up at around the $300k mark.

Here's a couple of examples slightly under $300k:
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2629 ... east-oyama
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2624 ... land-north
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2607 ... a-glenmore
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spooker
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by spooker »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:08 pm No, it's not too simple:

Work full time at minimum wage, plus some hustle like renting out a bedroom or finding a side income of some type, plus some sacrifice/fiscal responsibility like using public transportation and avoiding eating out and you should be able to afford a home. Now that home might only be a 2 bedroom apartment in an older building, but it's owned.

Is the above achievable? Well, let's do some basic math:
- $300k will buy you a basic 2 bedroom condo in Kelowna.
- Full time pay working minimum wage is approx $3000/month (before taxes)
- Mortgage on $300k at today's rates is approx $1750/month

From what I see, an individual would definitely need that side income to make it happen as the cost of owning the home would essentially eat up 100% of income. It would be very tight, but looks possible. You'd need to do something like rent out the 2nd bedroom for $800/month and use that money to pay for utilities, groceries, etc.
When does unemployment hit 0%? There's always someone unemployed, is that just because that last 2.7% is lazy?

As for mortgages, again it seems that there is a lot of simplification going on, how do you save for a $15,000 downpayment on $3k/month? And then how do you pass the stress test for those mortgage payments when making $3k/month?

I count myself lucky that I happened to have a grandmother who helped me with the downpayment, that I was making a better than average paycheque, and that the price of a SFH was less than $400k back then ... my ex-wife lived with her ex-bf to save enough for her first apartment, took her over 2 years of living with the guy to get to that point, part of the reason that I married her was that she had that kind of perseverance ... but she was also lucky to have the option to live with him even after breaking up ...

I'm still going with "it's not that simple" ...
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Patron
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Patron »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 1:15 pm
Nedroj wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:51 pm That is the issue with Condos/Townhouses the additional 250-550$ a month in strata fees on top of your mortgage makes the total monthly payment almost on par with buying an older home. So why would anyone buy a Condo or Townhouse?

Also where are these 300k condos?

From a quick Google search "Condos for sale in Kelowna" I get this:

https://www.realtor.ca/bc/kelowna/condos-for-sale

Yes, there is a 0 bedroom 1 bath condo for sale for 319,000$ but the vast majority of condos for sale are anywhere from 420,000 for 1 bed, 1 bath on Sutherland Ave to 1,199,900$ for a 2 bed 2 bath condo on Abbott.

Similar condos that I currently live in 2 bed, 2 bath 1100sqft in west Kelowna are selling for 550,00$. A decent single-family detached home is selling for around $700,000+
Just curious, have you ever owned a piece of property? It doesn't seem that way based on a couple of things like not understanding that paying strata is cheaper than paying maintenance costs for a stand alone home, or how to look for/search for properties to buy.

Yes, you need to pay the strata. Yes it costs money. But it's cheaper than paying maintenance costs associated with owning a stand alone home. Own a condo, you pay the strata - own a house you pay the cost of replacing the roof, or fixing utilities/services to your home, or pay to maintain the yard, etc.

There are plenty of examples of Condo's for $300k. Why are you using Google to search for property?
- Go to realtor.ca to search for property for sale, not google.
- Set your location as Kelowna
- Set the filter for Condo/Strata
- Set the sort by "Lowest price". 2 bedroom units start popping up at around the $300k mark.

Here's a couple of examples slightly under $300k:
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2629 ... east-oyama
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2624 ... land-north
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2607 ... a-glenmore
you omitted the Contingency Fund on the Stratas - you could be hit with an extra $20K special levy a few times to build up a new fund and/or spend the funds for upgrading- and Strata Fees always need to increase at a much higher rate than owning a SFH with a suite
TylerM4
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by TylerM4 »

Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 2:15 pm you omitted the Contingency Fund on the Stratas - you could be hit with an extra $20K special levy a few times to build up a new fund and/or spend the funds for upgrading- and Strata Fees always need to increase at a much higher rate than owning a SFH with a suite
Strata is cheaper, that's all that matters in this context.
TylerM4
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by TylerM4 »

spooker wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 1:32 pm
When does unemployment hit 0%? There's always someone unemployed, is that just because that last 2.7% is lazy?

As for mortgages, again it seems that there is a lot of simplification going on, how do you save for a $15,000 downpayment on $3k/month? And then how do you pass the stress test for those mortgage payments when making $3k/month?

I count myself lucky that I happened to have a grandmother who helped me with the downpayment, that I was making a better than average paycheque, and that the price of a SFH was less than $400k back then ... my ex-wife lived with her ex-bf to save enough for her first apartment, took her over 2 years of living with the guy to get to that point, part of the reason that I married her was that she had that kind of perseverance ... but she was also lucky to have the option to live with him even after breaking up ...

I'm still going with "it's not that simple" ...
I think you are mixing up the words simple and easy. The idea/concept is simple, but the execution isn't easy. In fact, it's quite hard to do if you're trying to make a go at it without help and working minimum wage.

What relevance does employment status have in this conversation? Are you trying to suggest that even the unemployed deserve a home or something?

How do you save for a down payment? The same way people have been saving for decades. The need for a down payment hasn't changed. Nor has the ratio of down payment to mortgage payment amount.

I saved up for a down payment by working as a farm hand for 2 years. I got free room and board for about 15hrs of work a week and saved most of what I made at my regular job. What you and your ex went through are other common ways of making it work. Yes, the down payment is more but so is income. 30 years ago minimum wage was 1/3rd what it is today.
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by spooker »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 3:52 pm I think you are mixing up the words simple and easy. The idea/concept is simple, but the execution isn't easy. In fact, it's quite hard to do if you're trying to make a go at it without help and working minimum wage.

What relevance does employment status have in this conversation? Are you trying to suggest that even the unemployed deserve a home or something?

How do you save for a down payment? The same way people have been saving for decades. The need for a down payment hasn't changed. Nor has the ratio of down payment to mortgage payment amount.

I saved up for a down payment by working as a farm hand for 2 years. I got free room and board for about 15hrs of work a week and saved most of what I made at my regular job. What you and your ex went through are other common ways of making it work. Yes, the down payment is more but so is income. 30 years ago minimum wage was 1/3rd what it is today.
Re: employment status ... if all it takes to get a home is a job what happens to those without a job?

I'm suggesting that everyone deserves the right to access a roof over their head ... we shouldn't be allowing anyone to live only for survival, not at this stage of our society, and without shelter that's pretty much what life is all about

It sounds like you had a good opportunity that afforded you home ownership ... that's great ...

Yes, 30 years ago it was 1/3 ... and the price of a house was about a 1/10 of what it is today (using the sale price of my house in 2001 vs it's valuation today) ... what worked for us won't work the same for people today
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

voice of reason wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:32 am part of the problem is they dont build low end homes anymore . they build homes for the rich and homes for the people on govt assistance ie: mentally ill or drug addicted but nothing for the lower middle class and working poor . its pretty bad when you see trailers in parks for 425k and you dont even own the land . we are throwing up towers in the downtown area for higher end apartments but they stopped building small houses and cheep apartments years ago . after ww2 there was an effort to build houses for people to live in. the houses were basic and small and so were the yards . it gave people a place to raise a family . its no wonder younger couples dont have kids anymore when they will never have a place to call their own
Millions of people worldwide live in apartment buildings. They don't own the apartment let alone the land beneath it. The very notion that the unhoused or under housed should somehow be provided a house on a piece of land is unworkable. Anyone who owns a house is not going to give it up for anything but fair market value.
If the Agricultural Land Commision could find a way to release some key pieces of property that are otherwise not suitable for agriculture then we might see some cheaper housing but the ALC is not a good citizen. It has a narrow focus and it has but one job to do and that is to preserve farmland even if it means that the people who are alive today don't have a home so that people in the future can eat. Most of our food comes from Mexico or the southern USA but evidently in the future we will be locally grown produce despite the challenges with climate.
Waste not
voice of reason
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by voice of reason »

Grandan wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 6:26 pm
voice of reason wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:32 am part of the problem is they dont build low end homes anymore . they build homes for the rich and homes for the people on govt assistance ie: mentally ill or drug addicted but nothing for the lower middle class and working poor . its pretty bad when you see trailers in parks for 425k and you dont even own the land . we are throwing up towers in the downtown area for higher end apartments but they stopped building small houses and cheep apartments years ago . after ww2 there was an effort to build houses for people to live in. the houses were basic and small and so were the yards . it gave people a place to raise a family . its no wonder younger couples dont have kids anymore when they will never have a place to call their own
Millions of people worldwide live in apartment buildings. They don't own the apartment let alone the land beneath it. The very notion that the unhoused or under housed should somehow be provided a house on a piece of land is unworkable. Anyone who owns a house is not going to give it up for anything but fair market value.
If the Agricultural Land Commision could find a way to release some key pieces of property that are otherwise not suitable for agriculture then we might see some cheaper housing but the ALC is not a good citizen. It has a narrow focus and it has but one job to do and that is to preserve farmland even if it means that the people who are alive today don't have a home so that people in the future can eat. Most of our food comes from Mexico or the southern USA but evidently in the future we will be locally grown produce despite the challenges with climate.
this is why people have a problem with the boomers "i bought my house for 20k but you are not entitled to own one"
Grandan
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:08 pm
spooker wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:14 am Buying into the idea that all it takes is hard work to be successful is too simple of an idea ... people need the opportunity to get into a place they can afford, not have the goalposts keep moving further away ... and yes, we do need to get away from the entitled idea that we all deserve a SFH ...
No, it's not too simple:

Work full time at minimum wage, plus some hustle like renting out a bedroom or finding a side income of some type, plus some sacrifice/fiscal responsibility like using public transportation and avoiding eating out and you should be able to afford a home. Now that home might only be a 2 bedroom apartment in an older building, but it's owned.

Is the above achievable? Well, let's do some basic math:
- $300k will buy you a basic 2 bedroom condo in Kelowna.
- Full time pay working minimum wage is approx $3000/month (before taxes)
- Mortgage on $300k at today's rates is approx $1750/month

From what I see, an individual would definitely need that side income to make it happen as the cost of owning the home would essentially eat up 100% of income. It would be very tight, but looks possible. You'd need to do something like rent out the 2nd bedroom for $800/month and use that money to pay for utilities, groceries, etc.
Yes! That is how you do it when your parents don’t give you the down payment. People need to lower their expectations. Also two people can pool their resources and purchase a larger home to share. Two couples with all 4 working could buy a larger home and get something phenomenal.
Waste not

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