Everyone deserves a home.

FmosaMD
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by FmosaMD »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 1:15 pm Just curious, have you ever owned a piece of property? It doesn't seem that way based on a couple of things like not understanding that paying strata is cheaper than paying maintenance costs for a stand alone home, or how to look for/search for properties to buy.

Yes, you need to pay the strata. Yes it costs money. But it's cheaper than paying maintenance costs associated with owning a stand alone home. Own a condo, you pay the strata - own a house you pay the cost of replacing the roof, or fixing utilities/services to your home, or pay to maintain the yard, etc.
Owned both. With the cost of stratas hovering around $400 - $600, it's cost effective to own a home. A roof is around $10k and only needs to be done every 15 years, so it's $700 a year to budget. Many stratas don't cover furnaces and air conditioners, etc so you are on the hook for some maintenance anyway. Then stratas are becoming an insurance nightmare. Even if living on the ground floor one must have unit insurance for if they leak water from their unit, they will be responsible for the deductible of the building (not cheap!). Then the strata also has to buy insurance. Then dumb rules are made like no BBQs, even electric.

If you're young, starting out and handy, owning a home can be a huge money saver over an apartment.

I also disagree that we aren't all deserving of a stand alone home with a yard. In a province where only 4% of the land is private residential, we should all have the opportunity for land. Owning a SFH should be made a possibility for the average person, we should encourage and build enough SFHs that the price is reasonable and the land values are not too high. I believe having access to your own piece of land, even if just 1/8 acre, is important.
Grandan
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:16 pm
Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 11:25 am ask yourself, if you were just starting off today could you afford the first home or the home you're living in right now today ? most likely you couldn't or you would need some help for the down payment

micro suites going for $500-$700K- Townhouses and duplexes $800-$900K and most SFH start at $850K and those ones usually need lots of upgrading or a mobile home starting at $300K- not much selection and I guarantee the selection you had when you first bought was much better and more in tune with the wages that you were making
2 bedroom condo's can be found starting at $300k. Brand new single bedrooms for $275k.

You put this to the wrong person:
My current home - No probably not. But could I buy my 1st home again - Yes absolutely. But understand this:
1) I literally bought the 3rd cheapest stand alone home in Kelowna that had a suite. The other 2 cheaper homes should have been condemned, there was no saving them.
2) I relied on the rental income of the suite to help pay the mortgage.
3) I rented out a room to help pay the mortgage (later I moved in my girlfriend to also help cover costs).
4) I put a huge amount of time and effort into fixing that place up.
You definitely got the right idea there. As you know the situation you start with is not the end game, it is just to get you into the game, to create the credit rating you need to move up. Too many people give up because they want to start at the top with a new unit that won’t need any work. Every house we ever lived in we fixed up whether it was owned or not. We rented and fixed the house up as well as rented out the extra rooms. When we finally purchased a home the developer we rented from lent us the down payment by way of a third mortgage. The owner of the home we purchased gave us a private mortgage and the BC second mortgage gave us the middle bit. In 2 years we were able to sell the house and realize a 50% profit with enough of a down payment to buy a newer bigger home in another community.
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normaM
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by normaM »

Back in the summer I read 2 couples buying one house together was a trend in Vancouver.

I agree starter or entry level homes don't seem to be desirable, nor investing sweat equity into them. That mind set needs to change if you wanna get into the game.
I rebuke you in the name of Versace
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Y-Wine
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Y-Wine »

In Japan they have 100 year mortgages. Transferable through generations. Guess the kids will have to live under mom and dads rules. :biggrin: :200: :hailjo:
Grandan
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

voice of reason wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 5:28 am
this is why people have a problem with the boomers "i bought my house for 20k but you are not entitled to own one"
My parents bought their house for $8000 back in 1952. What does that have to do with what I paid in 1975? About the same as what it has to do with what people pay today.
I don't know where the idea that you are not entitled to own a house came from. Thousands make it possible by whatever means possible. Thinking that you are entitled to a million dollar home when you are starting out in adulthood is ridiculous.
I managed to buy a house without bank financing but I also did not own a car or have any other debt. I did not have a cellphone plan, Netflix or Skip the Dishes. I saw home ownership as a priority over some of the other expenses which are entirely discretionary such as jewelry, RVs and vacations. (We tented at provincial campgrounds). Keeping people from buying a house is the $800 car payment, vacations, alcohol and expensive restaurants. These were all things that we did not have to deal with. We read books that we borrowed from the library for free. We walked down to the sea or visited the museum for cheap. Apparently that is not good enough now, Yep, here is a generation who wants it all.
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Grandan
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:22 pm
TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:08 pm

No, it's not too simple:

Work full time at minimum wage, plus some hustle like renting out a bedroom or finding a side income of some type, plus some sacrifice/fiscal responsibility like using public transportation and avoiding eating out and you should be able to afford a home. Now that home might only be a 2 bedroom apartment in an older building, but it's owned.

Is the above achievable? Well, let's do some basic math:
- $300k will buy you a basic 2 bedroom condo in Kelowna.
- Full time pay working minimum wage is approx $3000/month (before taxes)
- Mortgage on $300k at today's rates is approx $1750/month

From what I see, an individual would definitely need that side income to make it happen as the cost of owning the home would essentially eat up 100% of income. It would be very tight, but looks possible. You'd need to do something like rent out the 2nd bedroom for $800/month and use that money to pay for utilities, groceries, etc.
what about the Down payment ? where does that come from ? and when you're paying a high rent, saving for one is almost impossible- also did you add the strata fees/property taxes which are only increasing ?

and how many decent $300K condos are out there that do have reasonable strata fees and a decent contingency fund ? not many- it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be
Why is it that people from around the world can arrive in Canada with nothing but the clothes on their backs and the next thing you know they are buying a house? What about buying a place for cheap because it is run down and just needs some TLC? FYI the contingency fund it built on the backs of the previous owners. They don’t get to take that with them when they sell, it is built into the price you pay.
I would reluctantly buy in a strata because the system can be so badly abused. Any person can get the whole strata to pay for new gutters when all they need is cleaned. I have heard a case where a strata had a new roof planned when the current roof is less than 5 years old just because someone said so.
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Grandan
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

normaM wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 8:35 am Back in the summer I read 2 couples buying one house together was a trend in Vancouver.

I agree starter or entry level homes don't seem to be desirable, nor investing sweat equity into them. That mind set needs to change if you wanna get into the game.
With the value being largely in the price of land, it makes sense to buy as much house as you can if you are sharing the mortgage.
Waste not
Grandan
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

FmosaMD wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 7:57 am
TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 1:15 pm Just curious, have you ever owned a piece of property? It doesn't seem that way based on a couple of things like not understanding that paying strata is cheaper than paying maintenance costs for a stand alone home, or how to look for/search for properties to buy.

Yes, you need to pay the strata. Yes it costs money. But it's cheaper than paying maintenance costs associated with owning a stand alone home. Own a condo, you pay the strata - own a house you pay the cost of replacing the roof, or fixing utilities/services to your home, or pay to maintain the yard, etc.
Owned both. With the cost of stratas hovering around $400 - $600, it's cost effective to own a home. A roof is around $10k and only needs to be done every 15 years, so it's $700 a year to budget. Many stratas don't cover furnaces and air conditioners, etc so you are on the hook for some maintenance anyway. Then stratas are becoming an insurance nightmare. Even if living on the ground floor one must have unit insurance for if they leak water from their unit, they will be responsible for the deductible of the building (not cheap!). Then the strata also has to buy insurance. Then dumb rules are made like no BBQs, even electric.

If you're young, starting out and handy, owning a home can be a huge money saver over an apartment.

I also disagree that we aren't all deserving of a stand alone home with a yard. In a province where only 4% of the land is private residential, we should all have the opportunity for land. Owning a SFH should be made a possibility for the average person, we should encourage and build enough SFHs that the price is reasonable and the land values are not too high. I believe having access to your own piece of land, even if just 1/8 acre, is important.
If you live on the bald prairie then land costs are less relevant. Kelowna is surrounded by steep unbuildable hillside and much of the flatter land is in the ALR. We are being held hostage by an unelected group, The Agricultural Land Commission who has one responsibility, to preserve farmland even if it is marginal. The cost of servicing land with sewer water and roads is so high that only the wealthy can afford to live there. Land with existing housing has grown expensive because a fourplex or larger can be built on a single family lot with a tear down house on it.
A single family home is still possible in large parts of Canada, just not in Kelowna where there are severe topographical restrictions and a governmental body that has no responsibility to anyone but themselves.
There are many small parcels in the ALR that are not economically viable for farming but we are stuck with them and thousands go without housing because of that.
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Patron »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 3:43 pm
Patron wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 2:15 pm you omitted the Contingency Fund on the Stratas - you could be hit with an extra $20K special levy a few times to build up a new fund and/or spend the funds for upgrading- and Strata Fees always need to increase at a much higher rate than owning a SFH with a suite
Strata is cheaper, that's all that matters in this context.
Strata Fees are not cheaper and only increase and at a higher rate, so does the insurance- why ? because you are paying for a portion of every owner in the building as they too are paying for yours- in a single dwelling you are paying only for yourself- way cheaper and the maintenance is under your control

Strata Fees can almost be as much as half a mortgage payment in some buildings
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Patron »

Grandan wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 10:32 am
voice of reason wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 5:28 am
this is why people have a problem with the boomers "i bought my house for 20k but you are not entitled to own one"
My parents bought their house for $8000 back in 1952. What does that have to do with what I paid in 1975? About the same as what it has to do with what people pay today.
I don't know where the idea that you are not entitled to own a house came from. Thousands make it possible by whatever means possible. Thinking that you are entitled to a million dollar home when you are starting out in adulthood is ridiculous.
I managed to buy a house without bank financing but I also did not own a car or have any other debt. I did not have a cellphone plan, Netflix or Skip the Dishes. I saw home ownership as a priority over some of the other expenses which are entirely discretionary such as jewelry, RVs and vacations. (We tented at provincial campgrounds). Keeping people from buying a house is the $800 car payment, vacations, alcohol and expensive restaurants. These were all things that we did not have to deal with. We read books that we borrowed from the library for free. We walked down to the sea or visited the museum for cheap. Apparently that is not good enough now, Yep, here is a generation who wants it all.
who thinks they are entitled to a million dollar home as a 1st time buyer ?

and it's not Renters buying RV's and having yrly expensive vacas etc- it's Home Owners, they are using the equity in their home to finance their lifestyles-

Renter's are paying the same amount as a mortgage payment - how can you save anything when you're literally paying off someone else's mortgage ?
Barnaby63
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Barnaby63 »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 1:15 pm
Nedroj wrote: Nov 20th, 2023, 12:51 pm That is the issue with Condos/Townhouses the additional 250-550$ a month in strata fees on top of your mortgage makes the total monthly payment almost on par with buying an older home. So why would anyone buy a Condo or Townhouse?

Also where are these 300k condos?

From a quick Google search "Condos for sale in Kelowna" I get this:

https://www.realtor.ca/bc/kelowna/condos-for-sale

Yes, there is a 0 bedroom 1 bath condo for sale for 319,000$ but the vast majority of condos for sale are anywhere from 420,000 for 1 bed, 1 bath on Sutherland Ave to 1,199,900$ for a 2 bed 2 bath condo on Abbott.

Similar condos that I currently live in 2 bed, 2 bath 1100sqft in west Kelowna are selling for 550,00$. A decent single-family detached home is selling for around $700,000+
Just curious, have you ever owned a piece of property? It doesn't seem that way based on a couple of things like not understanding that paying strata is cheaper than paying maintenance costs for a stand alone home, or how to look for/search for properties to buy.

Yes, you need to pay the strata. Yes it costs money. But it's cheaper than paying maintenance costs associated with owning a stand alone home. Own a condo, you pay the strata - own a house you pay the cost of replacing the roof, or fixing utilities/services to your home, or pay to maintain the yard, etc.

There are plenty of examples of Condo's for $300k. Why are you using Google to search for property?
- Go to realtor.ca to search for property for sale, not google.
- Set your location as Kelowna
- Set the filter for Condo/Strata
- Set the sort by "Lowest price". 2 bedroom units start popping up at around the $300k mark.

Here's a couple of examples slightly under $300k:
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2629 ... east-oyama
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2624 ... land-north
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2607 ... a-glenmore
Two of those are in 55+ communities, though I guess that still doesn't make it unreasonable since people today can't really expect to start owning a house until 55+.
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Grandan »

Patron wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 12:09 pm
Grandan wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 10:32 am

My parents bought their house for $8000 back in 1952. What does that have to do with what I paid in 1975? About the same as what it has to do with what people pay today.
I don't know where the idea that you are not entitled to own a house came from. Thousands make it possible by whatever means possible. Thinking that you are entitled to a million dollar home when you are starting out in adulthood is ridiculous.
I managed to buy a house without bank financing but I also did not own a car or have any other debt. I did not have a cellphone plan, Netflix or Skip the Dishes. I saw home ownership as a priority over some of the other expenses which are entirely discretionary such as jewelry, RVs and vacations. (We tented at provincial campgrounds). Keeping people from buying a house is the $800 car payment, vacations, alcohol and expensive restaurants. These were all things that we did not have to deal with. We read books that we borrowed from the library for free. We walked down to the sea or visited the museum for cheap. Apparently that is not good enough now, Yep, here is a generation who wants it all.
who thinks they are entitled to a million dollar home as a 1st time buyer ?

and it's not Renters buying RV's and having yrly expensive vacas etc- it's Home Owners, they are using the equity in their home to finance their lifestyles-

Renter's are paying the same amount as a mortgage payment - how can you save anything when you're literally paying off someone else's mortgage ?
I think the consensus is that you have to find cheap accommodation while you save for a down payment. That means lower your expectations. Spend less on frivolous stuff, double up with other like minded individuals.
It also means you should get a better education ie. “trade” or some other skill set that gets you the higher paying job that you need to qualify for the mortgage on the house of your dreams.
When the mortgage rates rose above 20% in the 1980’s many people lost their homes. The province helped us out by offering to provide a loan by way of a third mortgage that we ultimately had to pay back.
Before arriving in Kelowna in 1980 we had owned 2 other homes and arrived with a decent down payment but even with that I had to ask for a raise so I could qualify for the mortgage. It was not all roses and buttercups for boomers as has been suggested.
Waste not
TylerM4
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by TylerM4 »

Barnaby63 wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 2:29 pm
Two of those are in 55+ communities, though I guess that still doesn't make it unreasonable since people today can't really expect to start owning a house until 55+.
What part of the phrase "Here are a couple of examples" lead you to believe that was a full list?

A big thing preventing owning a house before 55 is attitude. Good example right here.
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Patron »

Grandan wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 2:34 pm
Patron wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 12:09 pm

who thinks they are entitled to a million dollar home as a 1st time buyer ?

and it's not Renters buying RV's and having yrly expensive vacas etc- it's Home Owners, they are using the equity in their home to finance their lifestyles-

Renter's are paying the same amount as a mortgage payment - how can you save anything when you're literally paying off someone else's mortgage ?
I think the consensus is that you have to find cheap accommodation while you save for a down payment. That means lower your expectations. Spend less on frivolous stuff, double up with other like minded individuals.
It also means you should get a better education ie. “trade” or some other skill set that gets you the higher paying job that you need to qualify for the mortgage on the house of your dreams.
When the mortgage rates rose above 20% in the 1980’s many people lost their homes. The province helped us out by offering to provide a loan by way of a third mortgage that we ultimately had to pay back.
Before arriving in Kelowna in 1980 we had owned 2 other homes and arrived with a decent down payment but even with that I had to ask for a raise so I could qualify for the mortgage. It was not all roses and buttercups for boomers as has been suggested.
where can you find cheap accommodation while holding a job that's going to pay you enough to save for a down payment and the high rent ?

unless you have Family or you get a nice inheritance how can you save when 50% of your earning goes to shelter- back then in the golden boomer days this didn't happen and if it did you had lots of options before you were ever forced to hit the streets
Barnaby63
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Re: Everyone deserves a home.

Post by Barnaby63 »

TylerM4 wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 2:51 pm
Barnaby63 wrote: Nov 21st, 2023, 2:29 pm
Two of those are in 55+ communities, though I guess that still doesn't make it unreasonable since people today can't really expect to start owning a house until 55+.
What part of the phrase "Here are a couple of examples" lead you to believe that was a full list?

A big thing preventing owning a house before 55 is attitude. Good example right here.
Who knew, you can walk into a bank and get a low interest, no down payment mortgage simply by having a "good attitude".

And I'm just using your examples, it was your choice to give examples that opposed your argument. It isn't my job to argue your point, it's yours if you want anyone to be on your side.

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